To Grade or Not To Grade

In the past, I haven't really been a big fan of the grading companies. First of all, it's not an exact science. In fact, it's extremely subjective. I wouldn't want to be the poor sap that ends up with a bad score for card because the grader had an argument with their spouse just before showing up to work. Secondly, I have to question the objectivity of a company that's getting paid to rate the condition of a card. Obviously grading companies want to stay in business and make their customers happy. I've also read stories about people who have sent cards in to be graded, then after receiving a less-than-desirable score on their card, have taken the card out of the slab and sent it back in to the same company, only to receive a higher score the second time around.

These are all well-known arguments that have been made against grading companies. Yet, despite these facts, it seems an overwhelming majority of the collectors on this forum have graded cards in their collections. Why is that? Do you prefer just having a card slabbed for preservation purposes or are you looking for a card with a specific grade?

Please let me know what you think. I look to you guys as the experts here. I'm just a newbie trying to learn how things work.

Thanks!

Those are all legitimate criticisms of grading cards/companies. To me, grading companies play a vital role in the industry.

Here are a few positives:

1. The cards look great in the holders (especially SGC)
2. The card is far more likely to be authentic, and the companies often can detect alterations such as trimming.
3. It gives you a guide for the condition of the card (there are things you can't see in a raw card if just in a scan).
4. The people who put the grade on the slab are, more than likely, better judges of the condition of the card than you are.

No question, grading cards has brought a lot more regulation to a hobby fraught with fraud and peril, rip-offs, etc. I would probably not feel confident buying the cards that I do if they were not graded.

I agree with everything Jamie said.

One of the critical things is that since most transactions occur online (such that you are only looking at scans), you cannot hold the card in-hand to judge the authenticity for yourself - much less give it the ol' once over to try to make sure it wasn't trimmed or altered in some way. Knowing that a third party has done so, adds a measure of security for what may be a big risk - depending on the amount of money at stake.

For me, I collect cards that are over 100 years old (read: fragile) and I like knowing that they are more secure than they would be if they were raw. That way I don't have to worry about my 7 year old ripping a card in half. Personally, I choose SGC because they are more conservative, generally more respected in the pre-war realm, and the cards just plain look good in their holders. There is something about the contrast of white borders next to the black insert just makes the cards pop (no pun intended).

Put it this way... if you have a card of any sort of value that you want to sell online, you'll get more money for it (by having more people interested) if it has been graded by a reputatable grading company (SGC or PSA). Some would include BVG (the vintage arm of Beckett) in that list, but I've had better success with the other two. For modern, BGS is the gold standard, but for pre-war, it is really just the other two.

82Redbirds wrote:First of all, it's not an exact science. In fact, it's extremely subjective. I wouldn't want to be the poor sap that ends up with a bad score for card because the grader had an argument with their spouse just before showing up to work.

this part is way overblown, often by novice who are too optimistic judging their own cards.

if you know what the grading cos are looking at you can generally guess the grade.

Jamie,

Let me play "devil's advocate." I'm not trying to be argumentative. I value your opinion as well as everyone's on this forum. I just want to open the subject for discussion. Who knows...you might change my view on graded cards. I'm open to it.

So hear are my thoughts about your reply.

jbonie wrote:1. The cards look great in the holders (especially SGC)

I couldn't disagree more. I think cards both old and new look horrible in those plastic tombs. In my personal opinion, the only advantage to the slabs (with regards to the card's appearance) is that they prevent any further degradation in the condition of the cards. I would much rather take on that responsibility myself, and avoid the slab altogether.

jbonie wrote:2. The card is far more likely to be authentic, and the companies often can detect alterations such as trimming.

I agree with you on this point. I'm not an expert at detecting altered or fake cards. While I believe I might be able to find evidence of a trimmed card by measuring, I would probably totally miss a rebuilt corner, or a card that was re-backed or chemically altered (unless it smelled like bleach). But if authenticity is the concern, why bother having the card graded? Why not just have it authenticated and slabbed?

jbonie wrote:3. It gives you a guide for the condition of the card (there are things you can't see in a raw card if just in a scan).

This is the part of the process that I have a problem with. Grading is very subjective. I know the companies try to follow certain guidelines for consistency, but when a card is borderline between two grades, the decision comes down to the person who is grading the card. To me, it boils down to the fact that a grade is simply someone else's opinion about your card, and personally, I don't really care what some guy locked in a vault thinks about my cards. They're mine...not his.

jbonie wrote:4. The people who put the grade on the slab are, more than likely, better judges of the condition of the card than you are.

While it's true that the people who grade cards for a living are much more experienced than I am at spotting a problem with a card, I still am opposed to them printing their opinion on the flip and sealing it in the slab with the card. Those scores can mean the difference between hundreds or even thousands of dollars on the secondary market. Conversely, an ungraded card would most likely sell for a fraction of the price that the same card/same condition would go for if it were graded.

jbonie wrote:No question, grading cards has brought a lot more regulation to a hobby fraught with fraud and peril, rip-offs, etc. I would probably not feel confident buying the cards that I do if they were not graded.

Keep in mind that these companies have only been around since the late 90's. Before that, it was up to the collectors to spot altered or fake cards. Yet, despite all of my ranting, I feel the same way you do. Faced with the decision to buy a very rare, very old card, I would feel more confident investing in a card that has been graded as opposed to one that hasn't.

If I were to ever enlist the services of card grading company, it would only be to have a card authenticated. I don't agree with the whole scoring system. Ideally, I would like to have enough skill/experience at examining cards that I would feel confident enough not to need a third party's services.

Thanks,
Randy

82Redbirds wrote:

If I were to ever enlist the services of card grading company, it would only be to have a card authenticated.

Bad idea, everyone will assume that your cards are altered in AUTH holders. If you don't care about the numeric grade (like me), then why not just let them put one on there, what's the harm/difference? Even if you don't agree with all the exact grades, so what?

Bicem wrote:

82Redbirds wrote:

If I were to ever enlist the services of card grading company, it would only be to have a card authenticated.

Bad idea, everyone will assume that your cards are altered in AUTH holders. If you don't care about the numeric grade (like me), then why not just let them put one on there, what's the harm/difference? Even if you don't agree with all the exact grades, so what?

I second that, the numerical grade tells the buyers they are authentic. SGC to me is the route to go, the cards look so much better in there holders and they are a stand-up company.

Lee

Bicem wrote:

82Redbirds wrote:If I were to ever enlist the services of card grading company, it would only be to have a card authenticated.

Bad idea, everyone will assume that your cards are altered in AUTH holders.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Are you saying that getting a card professionally authenticated and slabbed without a numerical grade makes it look suspicious in the eyes of other collectors?

Bicem wrote:If you don't care about the numeric grade (like me), then why not just let them put one on there, what's the harm/difference? Even if you don't agree with all the exact grades, so what?

I'm a collector. I'm not a dealer or someone who invests in trading cards with the hopes of turning a profit later on down the line. When I take the time to seek out and purchase a vintage card, I plan on keeping it that card in my collection permanently. If an individual wants to give me their opinion on the condition of my cards, I'm willing to hear what they have to say, but when a company wants to print that opinion on a flip as if it's the gospel and seal it in a plastic case along with my card, that ruins its value in my eyes. (Yes, I actually think graded cards are worth less than their non-graded equivalents despite what the price guides say. )

I'm not totally naive. I know there are bad people out there that will go to great lengths to doctor cards in an attempt to make a few bucks (or even thousands of bucks). I know that's why companies like PSA and SGC exist. I just don't agree with the whole grading process. When most people think about getting their cards graded, they looking for a good number, not making sure their card is authentic...and that's the part I don't like.

Card grading has it's place. If you're a dealer and you sell a lot of cards, grading definitely increases the value of your cards to most people (again, I'm not "most people"). But I don't think everyone on this forum is a dealer, which is why I question the card grading process.

It's just my opinion. I'm one guy in a huge world of collectors. Each person is going to have their own views. I simply want to find out what other people's views are on this subject so I can be a better educated collector.

Thanks for sharing.

Randy

For those of you making the argument that the cards look better in the slabs, I have this observation to make. Doesn't the flip at the top of the slab make it look like someone forgot to take the price tag off? Even though it's probably the in the worst condition of the three, I would choose the ungraded card any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

As for me, I can appreciate them raw, but prefer them to be holdered for a variety of reasons - many of which have already been outlined. And no... the flip does not look like a price tag to me.

Bear in mind that all cards will be sold, given away, destroyed, or lost. It is just a matter of time. I'm sure the boys who held the above cards in 1909 thought they were in a "permanent collection" too. Turns out that someone owned them afterwards.

You clearly prefer your cards raw and that is just fine. Collect them that way or buy them already graded and crack them out. It's just a hobby and I'd recommend collecting the way that makes the most sense to you.


...

BTW, I'd pick the raw one in the above example too. I mean just look how much bigger it is!

(In all seriousness, though, why not just buy the SGC 10 and crack it out of the holder? That one has the best eye appeal - either in or out of the holder, imo)

terjung wrote:In all seriousness, though, why not just buy the SGC 10 and crack it out of the holder? That one has the best eye appeal - either in or out of the holder, imo

All things being equal, that is exactly what I would do. The problem is that graded cards normally go for much more than their non-graded counterparts. But if I found myself in a situation where I needed one last card to complete a set, and all I could find was graded cards, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger and just break the card out of the slab once I had it in my possession.

82Redbirds wrote: Are you saying that getting a card professionally authenticated and slabbed without a numerical grade makes it look suspicious in the eyes of other collectors?

I'm a collector. I'm not a dealer or someone who invests in trading cards with the hopes of turning a profit later on down the line. When I take the time to seek out and purchase a vintage card, I plan on keeping it that card in my collection permanently. If an individual wants to give me their opinion on the condition of my cards, I'm willing to hear what they have to say, but when a company wants to print that opinion on a flip as if it's the gospel and seal it in a plastic case along with my card, that ruins its value in my eyes. (Yes, I actually think graded cards are worth less than their non-graded equivalents despite what the price guides say. )

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, it will look suspicious in the eyes of collectors because the vast majority of cards in AUTH holders are altered since not many people purposely elect AUTH over a number grade. Just stating a fact regardless if you agree with the principle or not or care what others think about your collection or not.

Another fact... graded cards are worth more than their raw or AUTH slabbed counterparts. Regardless if you personally care about the value or not, if you're going through the trouble/cost of getting them slabbed AUTH, would you not rather just have that extra value built into your collection and opt for the number grade? (I know you don't plan on selling, but extra value is still a good thing if/when you pass them down after your death, or are forced to sell for a medical or family emergency, or whatever).

Just my thoughts, if seeing a number grade truly makes you hate the card, I would just keep them raw and not get them slabbed AUTH.

Randy,

It had seemed like from your first post that you were subtly expressing a preference towards collecting ungraded cards. I can't really argue it with you because I believe that everyone should collect what they want to collect.

The slabs add value to the card for the reasons you and I have stated. For the record, I like having a numerical grade, I want to know the condition of the card. Otherwise dealers will often describe their card inaccurately to juice up the value.

In Boston, there was a card store and that had a special code they put on the card to say the condition so that they knew and the collectors didn't. I'd rather have a third-party grade because it protects me as a consumer. Even if the card were overgraded, I can still sell it as such in the holder.

Jeff is saying that since in TPG parlance, "Authentic" means altered, if you were simply to have your cards labelled Authentic, many people would assume they are altered, and that would damage their resale value.

Speaking of the labels, the SGC label is a little messy. They should at least take the website off the top.

I can't see the hobby as a whole returning to an unslabbed era. But I respect those who like it raw!

One more thing, I think to make a fair comparison in appearance between ungraded and graded, you need to present the cards as the same size. Also, not everyone uses such a nice black background for their raw cards.

Bicem wrote:it will look suspicious in the eyes of collectors because the vast majority of cards in AUTH holders are altered since not many people purposely elect AUTH over a number grade.

I'm already learning new things. I was under the impression that having a card authenticated meant that the grading company was checking to make sure the card was not fake or tampered with.

So when a collector sends a card in to be authenticated (without having a numerical grade assigned to the card), what exactly is the grading company doing?

82Redbirds wrote:So when a collector send a card in to be authenticated (without having a numerical grade assigned to the card), what exactly is the grading company doing?

When a card is graded "Authentic" it means "failed to receive a number grade". So the card itself is actually from the time period and not a reproduction or fake, it is real. But someone did something to it beyond the normal course of wear and tear for a card. It is either trimmed, ripped in half and taped back together, or any other number alterations - repainted, touched up, etc.

Since what was done to it was man-made (usually in an attempt to bolster the appearance of the card), many collectors very much look down on this as it wasn't natural wear. Those collectors will accept anything - strains, creases, scratches, paper loss, etc - as long as it is natural wear but will avoid Authentic graded cards like the plague.

This is just the language of the hobby that you are learning. Yes, it would seem odd that something deemed "Authentic" would be considered detrimental. But so be it. A card must be more than authentic - it must be able to achieve a number grade to be desirable to many collectors.

jbonie wrote:One more thing, I think to make a fair comparison in appearance between ungraded and graded, you need to present the cards as the same size. Also, not everyone uses such a nice black background for their raw cards.

I think I've got the images adjusted now so that the cards appear to be pretty close to the same size. Thanks.

I think 82Redbirds is looking for a TPG to put something like the following on the flips of the cards he submits: "Authentic and eligible for a numerical grade, but submitter has requested that we not provide one." Perhaps this is something TPGs will decide to offer in the future, especially if they sense there is sufficient demand.
Val

Seriously don't think there will ever be enough sufficient demand for that service. People just love their number grades too much.

I would love to see the price differences between grades fall in the future though as people start to realize that grading is simply a subjective opinion and not the word of God.

Bicem wrote:I would love to see the price differences between grades fall in the future though as people start to realize that grading is simply a subjective opinion and not the word of God.

Amen!

By the way, thanks for explaining the authentication process earlier. I've still got a lot to learn when it comes to vintage cards.

One note on the word "Authentic" on a slab. Though it is undoubtedly less desireable than a numerical grade, it isn't always the kiss of death. In some cases, cards are slabbed "Authentic" for reasons that are not devious. Three SGC examples:

1- SGC will grade a card as "A" if it had more than a certain percentage of the card missing. I don't know what that percentage is/was, but I'll guess somewhere around 5%. I have heard that SGC is steering away from that practice now and is leaning more towards giving a "1". That is not verified though. I used to have a 1914 CJ of Grover Alexander that had some section loss and was given the "A".

2- If a card has a piece of tape on the back, it is given an "A". I have two cards with a piece of tape on the back and they were given that designation solely for that reason. (E107 Plank and E107 Ryan for those keeping score).

3- Not all cuts are used for trimming to make the card look better. I've seen some cards that have had the corners clipped/chamfered for whatever reason. I have a card that has damage at one corner from what looks like an inadvertant cut. It certainly wasn't done with malicious intent to improve the appearance of the card. This card also got an "A" (and rightfully so). Because I know exactly why the card got this grade / designation, it doesn't bother me. As an aside, it is rare enough that I wouldn't be able to find another one to purchase if I tried.

If I truly wanted to, I could take that last card out of the holder and rub that corner on the sidewalk to "wear the corner down". Sure, we could have a debate about whether intentional wear = alteration, but my point is that not all "A" cards are equal. Sometimes it depends on how scarce the cards are. If only a few have ever been graded, you may have to take what you can get... especially if you know for a fact that the card has not been designated "A" for any malicious reasons.

The examples that I have given are far in the minority for the reasoning for "A" designations. (Also included may be the owner's request for have it so designated). In the absence of other knowledge, though, people will presume that a card is designated as authentic due to one of the most common reasons; namely trimming, recoloring, rebuilding of corners, or restoration. Trimming to make the corners sharper has got the be the lion's share of the cards in authentic holders, but some cards may have a multitude of problems.

As a further example, I would avoid a pristine looking 1954 Hank Aaron in an "A" slab like the plague. A slab like that would scream, "this card has been trimmed". And by the way, I wouldn't expect that card to stay slabbed in the "A" holder for long. I would expect someone to crack it out and try to sell it as near-mint to someone looking for a deal on a raw card. So, I guess I'm saying that I would similarly avoid an online purchase of a raw card as well - unless I knew the seller very well and trusted him.

If I buy raw, it is either from a trusted source or purchased in person where I can examine the card in-hand.

Having a card in a slab does not remove all questions, however. Some bad cards have made it into holders - even from reputable companies. I find that SGC makes fewer mistakes than others and personally give their opinion slightly more weight, but again... it is just another opinion. It does not guarantee anything, but does increase the likelihood that something is legit. The bottom line is that the onus is on one still to buy the card, not the holder.

Just wanted to give you another collectors view.

Your comment- "When most people think about getting their cards graded, they looking for a good number, not making sure their card is authentic...and that's the part I don't like." Not true for me and I would guess a lot of people. The average grade in my collection is about an SGC 40 VG, the grades do make a difference but the card is whats important at the end of the day. On your examples without having seen the backs I would take the SGC 10 over the other two, it just presents better.

I can honestly say I would prolly not have gotten back into collecting if not for graded cards and the registries. I live north of Houston and we have 2 conventions a year and only a couple stores in the area with little to no vintage, this meant the only way to really build a collection was thru the mail. Years ago I stopped collecting as I got sick of buying overgraded cards from dealers thru the mail. Buying a NM card then it shows up with a crease seemed common place, I recieved cards that were VG with a corner missing, then you had issues with how they sent them and possible damage in route. It just all added up to a bad experience and I took a long break 10+ years because of it.

While grading is far from perfect imo its still a huge setup from the past. In general I feel like I get what I pay for and thats really whats important, and while some cards are over/under graded its still within a tight range and with scans on ebay or auction houses I have a high comfort level buying high dollar cards.

I still buy a lot raw but its mainly low grade stuff with little fear of alterations. Along with pre ww2 cards I collect Roberto Clemente cards and buying them raw is a nightmare and you pretty much have to be an expert to have any confort level and even with my 10 years experience in his cards I would still run from from nearly any raw topps card of his (so many cards are trimmed), what I buy raw are his oddball types.

I can understand your issues with giving a number grade but its only their view on the grade, I like to use that to my advantage, say with exhibits I dont mind back damage and that kills the grade but can mean bargins for me. Yes there are a lot of what I call slab collectors out there who only care about the grade and thats cool for them not how I would collect but then again my collection is nearly all graded and many dont understand that. At the end of the day collect how you like but if your worried about the money side of things then grading with a grade is a must.

Good luck heres an example of getting a great card at a bottom price because of grading-

That Ruth is the exact reason for the well-used adage "Buy the card, not the slab!"

smtjoy wrote:I can honestly say I would prolly not have gotten back into collecting if not for graded cards and the registries.

I discovered eBay and PSA at roughly the same time and they are very much responsible for my returning to the hobby. A little more than a decade later, I can say that grading is generally a force for good and that virtually all of the cards in my small collection are graded. My cards tend to come and go quickly, so it just makes sense to have them in slabs. However, I also think grading turns our cardboard relics into mere commodities. Grading has really diminished the sensory experience of collecting, which is probably why I've become so unsentimental about my cards.