Budget Grading Companies and eBay??

First of all, I wish I had known to do a search quite some time ago for forums dedicated to vintage ball card collectors. In the short time that I have been a member here, I have really enjoyed and appreciated the members and the vast knowledge found.

With saying that... Over the past 2-3 years I have been buying cards (95% baseball and mostly high end stuff) like crazy. A good bit of what I have been purchasing (100% eBay) have been graded cards from (what I NOW know to be) budget grading companies. I have always thought that as long as the card was graded by any grading service that I was protected against counterfeits and altered cards. I am now beginning to think NOT. I guess that I have always figured that the budget services were just a bit more leniant on the grades that they issue.

This is what I am getting at. If I purchase a graded card off of eBay that is one from the "budget services" and send it in for a cross grade to PSA (which I have bought the 2 year membership back in the Spring of '08 and have yet to utilize their service), is there the possibility that the card could come back NOT AUTHENTIC or ALTERED? If this is possible, do I stand a chance in Hell of getting a refund from the seller(if willing) or winning a dispute filed through Paypal because of my findings? Not sure on the policies but will be doing some research on this issue. Just thought one of you here might have experienced something similar and could shed some light, here.

Thanks so much, cheese

It is entirely possible that you got an accurate grade on an authentic, unaltered card from a budget grading company; however, if I were a betting man, I would bet that that isn't the case. Obviously, it depends on the card and on the grading company. The general rule of thumb is that anyone outside of SGC, PSA, BVG, and GAI leaves you with no assurance. Many here can also tell you of overgrading or altered cards being slabbed with one or more of those companies as well. Grading, in itself, is highly subjective and the graders are human. Unfortunately, some things slip through. As for the first 3 of those companies, I think it is pretty safe to say that the card is authentic - with GAI following pretty close behind. GAI's biggest knock is that they tend to overgrade slightly. Others more knowledgable than I will testify to mislabeling of T206-type pack encapsulation and similar issues, but they are generally in the ballpark.

With regard to budget graders... on the low end stuff, it is likely that the card is just overgraded. You said that you have been buying higher end cards though. For the high end cards (read: higher motivation to profit from it), I would be highly suspect. If I had a '33 Goudey Ruth that "I found in my grandpa's attic after he passed away", you could be sure that I would ask around as to who I should have grade it (if I didn't already know). Having said that, you could always post a scan and see what the members come up with. You probably have the industries leading experts on many of the set that you are talking about. Chances are that someone could post an unaltered, authentic match for the cards you are interested in authenticating. Caveat here... scans are no substitute for examining the real thing.

If it is a frequently counterfitted card in a "budget" slab, I would bet dollars to donuts that it is either altered, trimmed, or flat out fake, I am sorry to say. As far as getting your money back on counterfeit cards... good luck. That all depends on the seller.

Kevin (onlychild) frequently examines cards free of charge as memory serves. He is on this board, will probably weigh in, and would be a good first step.

Good luck!
Brian

Telling us which company's slabs your cards in will give us a better idea if your cards are just legit and altered or if there is a good chance a fake is in the slab.

Your in big trouble if you have any NASA (I forget what other names the scam artist used) slabs.

Jay

unless the budget grading co's is GAI/PSA/BECKETT/SCD...you might be in trouble.

It looks like Edna started her own grading company. She seems to be a tough grader:

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-SWEET-CAPORAL-BASEBALL-CARD-GUS-DORMER-1-0-ARROWGR_W0QQitemZ250332262815QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_SM_Sports_Cards?hash=item250332262815&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A570|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-SWEET-CAPORAL-BASEBALL-CARD-BILL-MALONEY-2-0-ARROW_W0QQitemZ270308546738QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_SM_Sports_Cards?hash=item270308546738&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A570|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

And they are also one car owners only driven on Sundays.

Lee

cccc wrote:unless the budget grading co's is GAI/PSA/BECKETT/SCD...you might be in trouble.

I'd have to agree with Quan (but don't forget to put SGC in that group). Other then those, it's an absolute crap shoot......with the odds not in your favor.

Each time I see this I say to myself "I hope that I never see this again". But I do, and it is worse each time.
Yet ebay now blocks bidder's names - so we no longer have a shot at getting word to beginners to be wary.

I once was scammed with some modern cards. I purchased a lot of them for 10$ from a local store. They were all graded by World Class Grading. I thought I had gotten a good deal until I realized when I got home that all of them were trimmed! The shop was an hour and a half a way so I never returned them. I agree with everyone who says you should only go buy SGC/GAI/PSA/SCD/Beckett.

-Randy

Didn't I read one time where one of our Board members was buying Pro graded cards cheap and trying for cross overs. Maybe it was Quan

Well Cheese, maybe we are crying over nothing. Lets see the worst of it. Ya never know.

It was the best $10 you will ever spend since now you know. You could have spent thousands of dollars if the seller had a scarce card.



Mark

Here is the reason I started this thread...



Sorry if the image is poor as I am in the process of learning my scanner.

cheese

-fixed

The specs on this card call for it to be 2-5/8" tall.
How close is it?

ItsOnlyGil wrote:The specs on this card call for it to be 2-5/8" tall.
How close is it?

I just measured it and it is exactly 2-5/8" Tall.

What type of back does it have?

CSA is one of those iffy companies. Usually the high end cards like you showed are trimmed and/or altered in some way. Lower end stuff, EX and under is usually good.

Jay

After examining the card, I am sorry to say that I believe the card you have posted is not authentic. Comparing it to authenticated versions, the right side of the glove (where it intersects the border) does not align with the proper letter in the word Cleveland. On your card, the right side of the glove lines up approximately with the letter "A". On two authenticated versions that I am looking at, the right side of the glove lines up roughly with the second "E" in Cleveland. Given that the registration on your card is not off, this leads me to question its authenticity.

Here is one that can be used as an exemplar. (full disclosure: it is not mine)

nice catch. The border looks way too dark on the CSA card.

Jay

The card is authentic, but likely trimmed (almost 100%). The name plate does not always line up with the same place in the actual picture. It depends on the printing run. However the newer CSA slabs of which this is one almost always indicates a trimmed card. Some of the really old CSA slabs (which looks like a PSA slab) are fine. You can also get lucky with the blue CSA slab.
One note of caution with people that are saying that SCD slabs are OK. There are two SCD slabs, SCD in red and SCD in blue. They are two different companies with a different name if you look closely. Red SCD is good, Blue SCD is bad.

Crack it out, send it to PSA for grading.
If you do not like the result, crack it out again and send it to SGC.
imho.

If the question was simply "is it trimmed" I would say send it to Jay, Keven, or any one of several board members. But the question is "will it grade", and only the slabbers know that.

terjung wrote:What type of back does it have?

The back is Piedmont.

ItsOnlyGil wrote:Crack it out, send it to PSA for grading.
If you do not like the result, crack it out again and send it to SGC.
imho.

That's exactly what I'll do. Not sure on cracking the card out myself. Will probably send it in as is and let PSA do the cracking. I will send it out this week and post results as soon as I have them.

Thanks to everyone for your insight and help,

cheese

I would think you would really want to crack it out first...I'm pretty sure PSA and SGC see those slabs and reject them.

I would guess many cards not in a SGC/PSA/BVG/GAI slab are altered; some people play the card that this is the only grader they could find but if you were looking to get your cards graded and searched on the internet for "card grading" you would find the above 4 companies.

Get a beer and crack it out!

hanksta wrote:I would think you would really want to crack it out first...I'm pretty sure PSA and SGC see those slabs and reject them.

Get a beer and crack it out!

I agree with Sean. I'd crack it out first. Don't let PSA see that it was in that holder. Leaving it in gives you an automatic strike.

crazylocomerk wrote:

hanksta wrote:I would think you would really want to crack it out first...I'm pretty sure PSA and SGC see those slabs and reject them.

Get a beer and crack it out!

I agree with Sean. I'd crack it out first. Don't let PSA see that it was in that holder. Leaving it in gives you an automatic strike.

GOTCHA! I can definately see your point. I hope I can do it without messing the card up. Are there any technics to cracking these cases that might help?

cheese