WOW! PSA!! T206 Doyle NY Nat'l WOW!!

Let's start off with Polor Bear ... ROTHFLMAO!

This should once and for all confirm to those that depend on grading, that graders are graders.
They are terrific with corners, and sides.
Authentication, is NOT one of their strong points.
Now they've added the Phonetic Label Factor.

That particular card, screams out FAKE, all over the place ... loud!
Collectors, understand this, but investors have a difficult time accepting it.

The last time that I saw a Doyle Nat'l, with a Polar Bear back, was in 1990.
It was one of Danny D's specials, AKA Dr Koos.
As a matter of fact, it almost looks like one of his creations.
Having a good Doyle, and having handled a couple of creations, looking at that Polor Bare, was almost like stepping back in time.

OK collectors, let's step back and look at this like a painting.

In 2001, SGC was involved in the Rosen/SGC/KO Fiasco.

Now in 2009, we have the PSA/Joe O. Polor Bare.

If it were not for the corners, and sides ... They be outa business!

Joe P.

The level of collective faith we place in that little number in the upper right corner truly is remarkable.

This may just confirm the fact that this is an over-corrupt hobby. IMO this is nothing of what may possibly be exposed some day.

If this proves to be an altered card then I can say I've been waiting for this type of alteration to show up, having studied and working on the technique. Fact is that no one would have ever believed this was possible and I would have been attacked, as has happened many times before, if the subject was mentioned. This is why I choose to post here about the subject as opposed to net54.

Many might recall the prediction of slab and flip altering becoming a hobby catastrophe unless security measures were addressed. Guess what...it's here! Regardless of the doctoring many refuse to accept the possibilities, until shown it can be done. Even then, that still doesn't stop the attacks.

Unfortunate (or fortunate) part about being a known card doctor with a website showing just basic alterations, is that I get a lot of emails...typically anonymous. Many times they come from card doctors trying to gun down the fastest draw in the west, so to say. Others use it as a confessional, telling everything they know about the corruption that goes on in the hobby. I've given my word not to disclose much of what is told and by whom....and will honor that. I do appreciate all those who have written or called.

This is, of course, all hearsay but when enough people from all different walks of life who don't know each other all have common stories...one has to start believing. Add this to the cards examined from respectable collectors who have the provenance from altered cards, my interaction with some graders and it paints a very scary picture for the future of our hobby.

What should worry collectors is the stuff you haven't seen or refuse to believe.

Sorry to sound so grim.

Very well put Kevin! I wouldn't have believed it myself. You are also correct in stating that the stuff we haven't thought about or seen yet should scare us. Times are changing unfortunately.


Joe!! That was great! Dr. Koos, haven't heard that name in awhile!

Happy New Year!

Dan

Kevin:
"This may just confirm the fact that this is an over-corrupt hobby. IMO this is nothing of what may possibly be exposed some day."

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Hello Kevin, "Some day" ... has already been here.

Back in 1990 at the Texas National, Mark Macrae and I, tried to alert the many dealers that we knew at the show of a malignant growth being created by a comic book dealer that operated a store called Fantasia.

Here we have, a collector (me), a collector/dealer (Mark) ... trying to protect our hobby, and dealers business.
The dealer list would blow your mind as to notables in the hobby.
With all due respect, I apologize to Mr Rosen, for not having put him on the alert list.
All in all, I don't think it would have helped him with the lesser creative culprit of the 2001 Fiasco.

The dealers at that show were great guys, and good people, but most of them decided that hopefully, it would pass.

I would be PO'd at myself if I didn't mention that Mark, and I had our supporters.
The biggest one, and guiding light was Lew Lipset ... Luv ya Lew.
Other guys on da Team:
Larry Fritsch (RIP), Herman Kaufman, Bob Lemke, John Tish, and I apologize to anyone that I've missed.

Hello Dan, I think I may have found me a forum that's interested in the CARDS, and the preservation of OUR HOBBY. ... Happy Healthy New Year to you, and yours!

As a matter of fact, to ALL YOU OTHERS ... let's have a hell of a year, and enjoy whatever card fills an empty slot!

This is not meant as a bash, but calling 'em as I see 'em.
Here we are in 2009, and to top it all.
The Polor Bare Doyle card is identified as a Larry Doyle card.

Joe P.

Ah, c'mon Joe. It has to be real. The graders NEVER make mistakes.

By 1990 I was slowly slipping out of the hobby. I think Mark's show in 1991 was the last show I set up at.

I missed out on the advent of grading. Although I remember someone trying to start up a grading company in the late 80s everyone just laughed. I remember seeing a trimmed up t206 Johnson portrait graded 98 by them at a Bob Lee show.

Jay

Mark, I think that you may be on to something.
A variation, of a variation.
In which case it eliminates the error factor.

Let's put ourselves in that guys shoe's.
Which guy, you ask.
You know, the poor guy that instantly discovered the wrong league designator.

Here's a guy that knew the difference between Joe's elongated nose, and Larry's square jaw.
He's see's the difference, and recogizes the wrong league.
He stops the press ... he takes out the type that represent the wrong league designation ... and within a nano second ... the man decides ... screw it, I'm a McGraw fan, and I'm not going to recognise the American League.
The man was fired the next day.

Thus ..... the 2009, one hundred year old screw up!

Joe P.

"Some day" ... has already been here.

Hi Joe and welcome!

Yes, I understand what you are getting at and agree that day has come and gone. From the collective emails that I've recieved over the past couple years, I am refering to a potential hobby shocker that may be exposed. From what I've been told by many...it's not a matter of if but when.

Hate to sound so cryptic but again, until seen, it's all hearsay.

All the best,

Kevin
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Kevin:
"Yes, I understand what you are getting at and agree that day has come and gone."

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Hello Kevin, and thank you.

Kevin I don't know about that, "Come and gone" is a debatable point.
My post is about a problem that I was confronted with back in 1990.
I successfully confronted the problem that was thrown at me and got my money back, but with no fault of mine, the problem is not gone, it is still there.
In 1990, we tried to raise a banner to fight the problem, but the ostrich approach was chosen by others. ... Because of that, the Dr. Koos of the world, are still here.

Please allow me to give a little background of myself.
I was born and raised in Spanish Harlem, back in the 1930's and '40's.
Tough times, tough area, and like everywhere else, everyone was making do.
Good people, and like every one that preceeded, and followed us, a strong desire to assimilate, but don't mess with us.

On second thought, after reading the above, and after looking at the map of the United States with all the States, Cities and Rivers with Spanish names ... maybe I should finish off the rest of this in Spanish.

Back to 1990, and Danny D.
I met him during Memorial Day weekend of 1990.
A likeable guy, then again, a con man wouldn't be a con man, if he were not likeable.
I'll try to spare most of the details.
I already had a Doyle, so my mission was to get another one, so that I could trade it for a Wagner.
It was a good idea, because Doyles weren't as well known then as the toughest card in the T206 set.
My mission was to complete the Monster.
That's the part that made me blind to everything else ... but not forever.
When my eyes were open ... I tried to convince Danny that it would be best to undo the deal.
He almost did, but his partner convinced him to stonewall.
By Labor Day 1990 Danny, and his partner saw the wisdom of undoing the deal.
Then I went to the Texas National to try to get the dealers involved in the defense of MY hobby THEIR business. ... Here it is 2009, and THAT problem is not gone.

Kevin, I know not of the problem that you speak of, and I wish you Luck.
I do know this.
If people aren't willing to fight ... they will lose it.

What are we losing?
Collectors ... I don't think so! ..... They're crazy to begin with!

Investors/Flippers ... They will thin out, because the air is being let out.

What is this Doomsday Machine that you speak of?

Joe P.

Joe...thanks a bunch for sharing!

Two years ago, if I would have said a name could be removed then reprinted on a card and get past the graders I would have been pounced on at every angle. I did my best to show some examples of basic card doctoring but everything had to be proven...even then the attacks came. Just think, the Doyle is a sloppy job IMO...and I'm the village idiot. Trying to obtain martyr status here or at least get more than three bunnies. .

I was hoping others (to include the most senior graders) could learn and understand they need to think "way outside of the box" from the alterations they have come to know. Nothing is impossible, yet most is detectable.

Not really a doomsday machine or thankfully anything that will stop collectors from collecting. Just another shocking example of how corrupt our hobby is. Again, it's hearsay until known as a fact. Perhaps the feds will dig deeper once they start to investigate.

Until then, to paraphrase someone much wiser than I ...the ostriches heads will be in the ground and the con men will be likable and trusted!


All the best,

Kevin
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Of the known supposed examples of this variation, what are the known backs? Given how rare it is, I would assume that it should limited to one back.

Jay

We call it the Magie Error, because of the man made name spelling error, which is unlike the printing color misstep that causes a variation.

The same for the Doyle Error, that's a man made wrong league designator, and then, omission of same ... Error begets Error.

As to the supposed examples:

"They're real, and they are spectacular ." ... The devil made me do it.

Each with a 350 Piedmont backside.

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Kevin, you keep talking about the flack that you were forced to fly through during the last two years ... I got to watch some of that.
Here's my take on it.
First of all, I agree with a great deal of what you had to say, and I feel that you have the proper thick skin to handle it.
You're dealing with board's, or forum's made up of:
Collectors.
Investors.
Investor/Flippers.
Let me not leave out the small group of the Investors, that actually believe that their portfolio, is a collection.

I don't know the numbers, ratio or per centage of each group, I do know that the collectors are the smaller group, and the others are always picking their brains.
Each of them have a different mindset, and approach to their addiction, and that's what makes it an interesting community.

Let's go back to the SGC 2001 Fiasco for a second.
Here's a red flag to think about.
A red flag that is so huge, that some say that it flew over the Kremlin during the cold war.
During the same day, of the same show, of the Rosen/SGC/KO Fiasco ... another Doyle was sold to a dealer ... and as I understand it ... during a different time period ... it was slabbed.

Stay well.

Joe P.

Kevin S. like yourself, I'm happy to say, not everyone chooses to be an ostrich, nor takes an automatic liking to a likeable con man.

You'll find that the graduates from the Creedmoor Institude, AKA collectors, will be the ones that will try to filter out the impurities in the hobby.

Not to expect much from the investors, and flippers.
As you know, their mindset differs, and they look at the hobby, as a market.

Collectors, enjoy the heartbeat, and excitement of the hobby.
Investors enjoy the upbeat of an up market.

Collectors will collect, regardless of an up, or down market.
Investors/flippers will thin out during a reality check down market.
They have tied up some money, and now they're trying to loosen some of it up, before they defeat the purpose of making money.

Kevin, sound off when you see a break in the story you speak of.
Collectors will survive.

Amigo Lipset, Mark Macrae, Kaufman, Lemke, Tisch, Fritsch (RIP) the battle we were in back in 1990, is still going on.

Yes we can!

Joe P.

What is the 2001 Rosen/SGC/KO fiasco?

That Fiasco was Keith Olberman buying a SGC graded (Doyle?) from Al Rosen at a show, Olberman than realized it was not authentic and SGC had graded a bad card and Keith got his money back. Any more details and I am kind of fuzzy about them.

lee

merkel was also involved...can't remember why his name stuck with me??? prolly had something else to do with this hobby...

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html

Kevin, do you have a card that you have added lettering Too? I would be interested in seeing it. I think this would be really tough for the uneducated to know this was bogus.

Lee

The reason why Joe Merkel comes to mind...............

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Rosen is quick to point out that the only reason he purchased the card was because it had been given the OK by SGC's most visible grading expert, Joe Merkel, who left SGC in October of last year. "I purchased the card on SGC's authority," said Rosen. "When the guy came to my table and offered the card, I immediately found Joe Merkel, who said without a doubt that it was authentic."

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html

1.So is Levi still sitting on the other copy?

2. Does anyone know who the person is that sold the cards to Levi and Rosen?

I am sure after his success he didn't just go away-who is he? and where is he? If I bought an 8k card from someone I would want to know their name.

Good Question Jim. i don't think I have ever heard a name mentioned.

Lee

I have bought from Levi in the past but have never had a good hobby discussion with him. I will try to email him and talk but I dought he will give any info through the email and also to someone he doesn't know.

Actually I will be at the Philly show all 3 days-I think I will wait until then and see if we can talk a bit in person.
I am sure Levi is aware of the situation and I still dought he wil give up a name but you never know until you ask.

One question for PY/JP-do you know where this guy is today? I would think after the situation blew up he has gone into hiding. SGC would want their money!

Kevin, do you have a card that you have added lettering Too? I would be
interested in seeing it. I think this would be really tough for the
uneducated to know this was bogus.

I sold them all.


It's now been proved that the uneducated can't tell....PSA graded one . From what I hear the price paid was unbelievable.

Even better, I look through that book and see several cards that collectors have told me about in the past that have been altered. One particular card doctor is a name that many would know, yet turn a blind eye. Again hearsay...I didn't see any of them do it.

I did although, hold one of the cards in that book in-hand. It was "definitely altered" according to my standards. Please don't ask which one because I won't break my word.
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