Scarce "E" Caramel Set Ranking

I thought it might be fun to try ranking the following tougher E card sets in terms if scarcity, similar to what we did in the Red Cross T card thread? We'll make it a combined effort and hopefully some interesting conversation will ensue. Who wants first stab at it?

E92 Croft's Cocoa
E92 Croft's Candy (black back)
E92 Croft's Candy (blue back)
E94 George Close Candy
E97 Briggs
E99 Bishop
E100 Bishop
E103 Williams Caramel
E104-1 Nadja (Athletics)
E104-2 Nadja (Pirates)
E104-3 Nadja (NY/Det)
E105 Mello-Mint
E106 American Caramel
E107 Breisch Williams
E136 Home Run Kisses
E221 Bishop Team Cards
E222 AWH Caramel
E224 Texas Tommy
E271 Darby Chocolates
E286 Ju Ju Drums
E300 Plow's Candy

E97's should be broken up between B/W and color.

B/W E97 should go after E107 in my opinion

fisherboy7 wrote:
E104-3 Nadja (NY/Det)
E221 Bishop Team Cards
E222 AWH Caramel
E224 Texas Tommy
E271 Darby Chocolates

some of these sets really blur together in terms of scarcity. i'll try to group them together from easiest to hardest...all imo of course and i don't consider some of these actual collectable sets or "candy" cards...like a chocolate box is not a card!

A---easiest...lots of dupes nice condition...in no particular order
e94
e97
e106
e92 crofts
e92 cocoa

B--scarcer dupes, rougher condition nice examples harder to find
e103
e105
e104-1
e104-2
e286 jujus

C--few example dupes of each subjects
e107
e99
e100
e92 crofts blue
e136 home run kisses (**talking out of my ass, know nothing of the set)
e300 plows

d--good luck finding a type
E104-3 Nadja (NY/Det)
E221 Bishop Team Cards
E222 AWH Caramel
E224 Texas Tommy
E271 Darby Chocolates
**e92 crofts red (not on original list but felt it deserves to be here)

imo it gets progressively harder as you jump from group to group. i'm most unfamiliar with the jujus and home run kisses(may've placed jujus as too scarcer than it is)...i don't consider jujus cards either and home run kisses are too modern for me . i wanted to put the plow's candy in the last group but felt there are far more known examples of e300s survivings than the others in the "D" group.

Square_Frame_Ramly wrote:E97's should be broken up between B/W and color.

B/W E97 should go after E107 in my opinion

if we start talking about e97 b/ws...then we have to include stuff like e94 newsboys and the like. we can throw out the more common e92s and put the tougher caramel "inserts" in.

e94 Newsboys are technically m131 if I remember right.

Quan, you have JuJus about right. Not sure if it's just recent but it seems that there have been a lot Plows on the market in the past 5-7 years. I remember when I went to the Mastro offices for DiMaggio bat controversy they had a large number (I recall seeing a dozen or more) just laying around waiting to be prepped for auction. There also seems to be 1 or 2 in every auction. You can't say that about Mello-Mints or e104-3s.

Jay

Quan's grouping is very similar to what I was thinking as well.

I rearranged the order in some of the groupings to show my thoughts on scarcity within each group.

The following is my opinion and each grouping goes from easiest to hardest.

A---easiest group
e94
e97
e92 crofts
e92 cocoa
e106
e136 home run kisses

B--scarcer (nothing changes here)
e103
e105
e104-1
e104-2
e286 jujus

C--took out the Home Run Kisses from this group.
e107
e92 crofts blue
e99
e100
e300 plows

d--good luck finding a type
E104-3 Nadja (NY/Det)
E224 Texas Tommy
E271 Darby Chocolates
E92 crofts red
E221 Bishop Team Cards
E222 AWH Caramel


Edited to add: THIS IS MY 2000th POST!

Nice job with the ranking guys, pretty much spot on with what I was thinking. Just a few thoughts...

-The Ju Ju drums could jump into group C - I'd say they're significantly tougher than E103's and E104-1/2's.

-Home Run Kisses probably belongs in group B. Not exactly sure why, but they don't seem to fit in with the rest so I understand why Quan would omit them. Kind of an under appreciated set if you ask me. I also agree that Darby Chocolates don't fit in because they're candy box cards....if we include them, then we ought to include the J=K Candy, Orange Border, and Baseball Bats cards as well.

-Good call on the E97 B/W Mark, I'd probably put those in the middle of group C.

-E221 Bishop Team cards and E222 AWH Caramel definitely belong at the top of the list, maybe as a 1A and 1B. Texas Tommy might deserve third spot? Whaddya think. The Red Crofts are insanely tough too...

-Congrats on 2K posts Eric!

Good thread.

Just a few thoughts:

1) The easy caramel sets should be added so that anyone who wants a good summary of all sets in general can easily identify how tough even the easiest set on this list is.

2) Assuming that this list is a ranking of how difficult it would be to simply find any example from a set (rather than a particular player from each set), I think that some of the figures are off.

- It is relatively easy to find "any example" of an e105 with the Bescher and Knights being a dime a dozen

- Finding any e107 is not too difficult due to the size of the set while finding a specific e107 is nearly impossible.

- e106s are much easier to find than anything in group A. This was not the case 5-10 years ago, but over the past 5 years they have come out of the woodwork.

- e94s are a bit tricky because many player/color combinations are nearly impossible. It is almost like 6 (or 7) sets in one. Honestly, if E92 Crofts Candy backs can be broken out by color, not sure why E94 fronts couldn't be as well.

- e103s and e104-1s are overrated, not that tough and should be in group A.

Shoud E90-1 be included in a discussion of scarcer caramel sets, or does it get left out because a good portion of it is 'easier'? If you are trying to build the set, we know that a handful of subjects would certainly have to fall into B or C...sometimes tougher.

Ray - I think many of the above sets have certain cards in them that are tougher than even the most difficult E90-1s.

I too think that the rarity of e103s is overrated. I was also thinking that all of the e-card sets should be included so people can get a good idea of what really is easy and what is tough. It probably wouldn't hurt to have separate ranking for type card rarity and set building rarity. As Richard pointed out, some sets like the e107, you can readily find a type card but building the set or getting a particular player is almost impossible.

Jay

Set building rarity may be difficult as a single card in one set may skew the rankings by quite a bit.

Take for instance the E99 and E100 sets, which are possible as at least one complete set exists of each - they were auctioned off back in 2007

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=75355

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=75356

whereas some of the sets that many perceive as "easier" either have not even been attempted, or if they have, people find that some examples may not even exist for certain players.

The e94 set has been completed without regard to color many times, but a master set has never been accomplished, as far as I know. Not to say that it couldn't be done, but it never has to date.

As another example, Scott is attempting to put together a Crofts Cocoa set and after many many years of research and searching, he is stuck at 49/50 with the last card not even known to exist even by the most advanced collectors (advanced meaning hobby knowledge and age ). I also know that one of the cocoas that Scott does have was the only example known up until just recently when another example was discovered. So here you have a set that has never been put together, and in today's internet age cannot even be assembled after 10+ years of searching, with one card not known to exist and at least one other card in the set with only 2 examples known. How does a set like this get ranked?

e94 non-color specific, e106, e103, e104-1 and e97 sets are doable, and relatively easily at that compared to the rest. e99 and e100 are possible and have been done. e105, crofts candy, crofts cocoa and plows may be possible with enough time - like decades. The rest - who knows.

Your point about sets is true. The e104-3 set can never be considered complete because we don't know what the full checklist is. Maybe it should broken down by Getting a Type Card and Getting a Particular Card/Making a Set. They are definitely two different ways to look at rarity. Defining it seems to be trickier.

Jay

To me, the E222 AWH Caramel set is among the most intriguing of all the sets in our ranking. Aside from being insanely rare, there's also a wide variety of color variations on the fronts, and a number of subtle design variations on the back. There's also the lone "AWA" caramel back, which is rather mysterious as well. Anyone have any experience collecting/researching this enigmatic set?

We have some pics of these cards in our virtual set area....see them HERE

I would love to land a Shag Shaughnessy from the E222 set. That card is probably #2 on my want list.

I've been very fortunate with adding some very difficult caramel cards to my collection of a very specific player.

nice scores. I'm thinking that the Texas Tommy would be the toughest of the three to find.

Jay

Great cards, Zach! ... and all tough!

terjung wrote:Great cards, Zach! ... and all tough!

You can say that again. Easily three of Moore's toughest cards, along with the Rotograph PC which Zach also owns. What tough Moore cards remain on your wantlist, Zach?

The Texas Tommy is a killer!

There are 2 types of E224 aren't there? Blank-backed or with a bio?


Ray

Thanks guys. Also, a big thanks to Brian for holding the Moore for me, for what seemed like an eternity.

Jay,

I agree, his E224-1 is probably the most difficult of the group. I've seen 2-3 of his E104-3s but only know of maybe 2 other Texas Tommys, although more must exist.

Ben,

I've pretty much tracked down all of the biggies, however, a few still remain. His M131 is up there (I've seen 2-3 of these but it's difficult to convince myself to purchase one because of how similar to an E94 it is) and so is his W600. Beyond those two, I'm pretty much finished. A Luxello Cigar pin would be nice, too, probably his most difficult item.

rholmes wrote:The Texas Tommy is a killer!

There are 2 types of E224 aren't there? Blank-backed or with a bio?


Ray

You are correct. E224-1 is the one that Zach has pictured. It has the bio on the back and is slightly larger than the blank backed E224-2.
http://www.oldcardboard.com/e/e2/e224/e224.asp?cardsetID=768

fisherboy7 wrote:

Easily three of Moore's toughest cards, along with the Rotograph PC which Zach also owns.

Cleveland Souvenir Shop, not Rotograph, so actually even tougher!

Bicem wrote:

fisherboy7 wrote:

Easily three of Moore's toughest cards, along with the Rotograph PC which Zach also owns.

Cleveland Souvenir Shop, not Rotograph, so actually even tougher!

Thanks Jeff, I stand corrected. It's a beauty of a PC, that's for sure.

Maybe next we should do a scarce PC ranking thread?

fisherboy7 wrote:

Maybe next we should do a scarce PC ranking thread?

no, no, no... postcards suck. They are not even cards. Let's talk about something else now.