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Scarce "E" Caramel Set Ranking

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Post by sabrjay Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:36 am

Ranking postcards would be tough anyway because there are so many RPPCs out there from that era that were independently produced.

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Post by Abravefan11 Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:03 am

fisherboy7 wrote:To me, the E222 AWH Caramel set is among the most intriguing of all the sets in our ranking. Aside from being insanely rare, there's also a wide variety of color variations on the fronts, and a number of subtle design variations on the back. There's also the lone "AWA" caramel back, which is rather mysterious as well. Anyone have any experience collecting/researching this enigmatic set?

We have some pics of these cards in our virtual set area....see them HERE

I have an article on the E222 set in the most recent Old Cardboard. Even though all are extremely scarce some like Smith, Otey, and Hooker are more common than others. Several only have a few examples known. The Burdick collection contains 9 of the 12 possible front images and one complete set of 12, which I believe was discovered complete, is known in a private collection. There are 6 standard back variations and the one A.W.A. back which is a typeset error.
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Post by fisherboy7 Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:18 pm

Abravefan11 wrote:
fisherboy7 wrote:To me, the E222 AWH Caramel set is among the most intriguing of all the sets in our ranking. Aside from being insanely rare, there's also a wide variety of color variations on the fronts, and a number of subtle design variations on the back. There's also the lone "AWA" caramel back, which is rather mysterious as well. Anyone have any experience collecting/researching this enigmatic set?

We have some pics of these cards in our virtual set area....see them HERE

I have an article on the E222 set in the most recent Old Cardboard. Even though all are extremely scarce some like Smith, Otey, and Hooker are more common than others. Several only have a few examples known. The Burdick collection contains 9 of the 12 possible front images and one complete set of 12, which I believe was discovered complete, is known in a private collection. There are 6 standard back variations and the one A.W.A. back which is a typeset error.

Thanks for the info Tim, much appreciated. Despite the extreme scarcity, I too recall seeing more E222's of Smith, Otey, and Hooker more than the others. I believe all three were included in that assorted ebay lot several years ago that David Levin ended up winning.

Which are the toughest players? I'd love to get my hands on your article. 6 standard back variations is ALOT for such a small set - here's a pair of AWH backs that illustrate the subtle differences. Are all the backs considered to be of equal scarcity? (with the exception of the AWA of course) Anyone have scans of the other 4 back types?

Scarce "E" Caramel Set Ranking - Page 2 E222bb
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Post by Abravefan11 Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:34 pm

Which are the toughest players? Going by the examples I have seen I would say Lipe and Ryan. I only know of one of each.

6 standard back variations is ALOT for such a small set. This would seem odd for such a small set until you understand how the cards were printed. They weren't produced by a large printing firm but rather two brothers on small presses in a job shop. The small batch size allowed for multiple resettings of the type and different color front and back inks.

Are all the backs considered to be of equal scarcity? With so few examples to compare it's difficult to say. If one of the tougher front images is the only player with a given back, then it would obviously be more scarce. I don't think that's the case, but I can't say for sure as I haven't seen enough to know.

I'll see if I can post the other four back scans later today if someone doesn't get to it before me.



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Post by Abravefan11 Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:04 am

Scarce "E" Caramel Set Ranking - Page 2 Recently%20Updated55

These are the six known E222 backs excluding the A.W.A.

Let me know if you have any other questions about the set and I will try and answer them if I can.

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Post by fisherboy7 Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:34 pm

Abravefan11 wrote:6 standard back variations is ALOT for such a small set. This would seem odd for such a small set until you understand how the cards were printed. They weren't produced by a large printing firm but rather two brothers on small presses in a job shop. The small batch size allowed for multiple resettings of the type and different color front and back inks.

That explanation makes sense. I can't think of another small set with so many back color/typeset variations - very unique. Aren't there more than 6 backs though? With the two black ones I posted, that makes 8. Or am I missing something? Maybe you weren't accounting for color, just the design? Ah, that's probably it.

Anyways, thanks for posting the back scans Tim. You've obviously put in alot of time researching the set. I'd love to own a E222 some day Scarce "E" Caramel Set Ranking - Page 2 633177
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Post by Abravefan11 Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:05 am

fisherboy7 wrote: Aren't there more than 6 backs though? With the two black ones I posted, that makes 8. Or am I missing something? Maybe you weren't accounting for color, just the design? Ah, that's probably it.

You're correct, I was not taking color into consideration when counting the back variations. Again the sample size is too small to determine how many color variations there could be for each print variation so I tried to keep it simple.

Fulton Press was a very small print shop and Arthur W. Havens was a one shop candy store. This accounts for the small batch printing and local distribution to the Richmond, VA area.





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Post by ullmandds Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:13 am

that tt moore is awesome...I've never seen that card...great pickup!!! i read the article in the latest old cardboard...a very cool...tough set indeed...don't think I'll ever own one unless I get really lucky!!!
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Post by cccc Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:29 pm

i've always been thoroughly impressed with tim's research, whether it's thee t206 sl'ers or anything else he does...he really goes in-depth and leaves no stone unturned. always educational and a joy reading his posts. he actually backs up his his findings with empirical data rather than half-assed theories...great work you're doing for the hobby!
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Post by phlflyer1 Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:53 pm

rman444 wrote:
As another example, Scott is attempting to put together a Crofts Cocoa set and after many many years of research and searching, he is stuck at 49/50 with the last card not even known to exist even by the most advanced collectors (advanced meaning hobby knowledge and age Very Happy ). I also know that one of the cocoas that Scott does have was the only example known up until just recently when another example was discovered. So here you have a set that has never been put together, and in today's internet age cannot even be assembled after 10+ years of searching, with one card not known to exist and at least one other card in the set with only 2 examples known. How does a set like this get ranked?

Had to LOL when I saw Crofts Cocoa listed in the group as having lots of duplicates and being easy to locate. I suppose that this is true if you just want to obtain a type card since you see the same handful of examples making the rounds on eBay and/or in auctions.

Even if you are talking scarcity in terms of locating a type example, they are right on par with Blue Backed Crofts Candy and more difficult to locate than regular Crofts candy backs.

In addition to what Richard mentioned above about the Wagner batting pose, there are another four cards in the set of which I have the only example(s) that I've ever seen and a couple of these have been in my collection for over 30 years.

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Post by cccc Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:01 am

hey, anything to get scott posting again Smile

if there's still no completed set then the e92 cocoas should move up the scarcity list some (past the e99s and e100s?).
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Post by terjung Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:22 am

cccc wrote:if there's still no completed set then the e92 cocoas should move up the scarcity list some (past the e99s and e100s?).

By that metric, there still haven't been any E107 sets completed either.
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Post by sabrjay Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:17 am

I think there might be one complete set of e107s
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Post by terjung Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:44 am

sabrjay wrote:I think there might be one complete set of e107s

I'd love to know who that is. A couple people are close and one is very close, but none of the set collectors that I am aware of have finished the set.

I am told that one is missing one card, another is about 6 away, another is 13, and another is around 15. Needless to say, most of the E107s reside in their collections. Nowhere near "Pirate" level of rare or AWH, but no piece of cake either.

I guess the key is finding one of those 6 or 13 or 15 cards before they do...
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Post by sabrjay Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:43 am

There was a partial master set sold about 8 years that was missing only 4 cards and had all the key cards. That is the set that I am assuming is complete now. I don't know the owner personally but do know someone who knows him well. I should ask him some time if he has completed the set.
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Post by phlflyer1 Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:25 pm

cccc wrote:hey, anything to get scott posting again Smile

if there's still no completed set then the e92 cocoas should move up the scarcity list some (past the e99s and e100s?).

Hey Quan, Scarce "E" Caramel Set Ranking - Page 2 728769

I'm still around but I've been very busy with the family this summer and haven't picked up much of anything lately so I don't have too much to post about.

Just so you know, I wasn't picking on you for where you ranked Crofts Cocoas, just adding a little more information to what Richard already provided.

I can understand why the perception would be that Cocoas are fairly obtainable but, like a lot of these sets, even if type examples are not hard to come by it can still be a daunting (or in some cases, impossible?) task to complete the whole set.

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Post by sabrjay Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:36 pm

Scott, don't worry. Quan is the resident whipping boy and he seems to enjoy it Scarce "E" Caramel Set Ranking - Page 2 594326
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Post by fisherboy7 Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:19 pm

Hey Scott, nice to see you back here, and thanks for keeping us in check on the Cocoas. Out of curiousity, what's the highest graded Cocoa in your set? So tough to find them in mid to high grade.
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Post by terjung Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:22 pm

sabrjay wrote:There was a partial master set sold about 8 years that was missing only 4 cards and had all the key cards. That is the set that I am assuming is complete now. I don't know the owner personally but do know someone who knows him well. I should ask him some time if he has completed the set.

This would be the first I have heard of that one or any other attempt at the E107 set being completed.
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Post by rman444 Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:17 pm

terjung wrote:

I am told that one is missing one card, another is about 6 away, another is 13, and another is around 15. Needless to say, most of the E107s reside in their collections. Nowhere near "Pirate" level of rare or AWH, but no piece of cake either.


Wow! 4 near sets of E107s. I had no idea that there were that many around. That is a crapload of E107s.
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Post by rman444 Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:21 pm

Scott - will you be going to the national?
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Post by sabrjay Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:31 pm

[quote="rman444"]
terjung wrote:
Wow! 4 near sets of E107s. I had no idea that there were that many around. That is a crapload of E107s.

It is. That's why getting a type card isn't tough. Four near sets means that is almost 600 cards in the hands of 4 people. The thing that is even more amazing, if this is true, is that the estimates of 5 or fewer examples existing of some cards is not very accurate.

If you use these numbers and then take into account people owning a type or two, that means there probably over 1000 examples of a e107 out there. Not exactly a scare issue if you want a type.
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Post by terjung Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:34 pm

Yeah... not really valuable at all. You should just send them all to me and I'll properly dispose of them.
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Post by phlflyer1 Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:43 pm

Hi Ben,

You are correct that Crofts Cocoas are difficult in grades above VG. The quality control on the set was pretty bad. I have a few higher graded cards in my collection. I'll add them to this thread.

As far as the set overall, there are only around 225 or so SGC graded examples and another 75? or so PSA examples (haven't checked PSA in a while) and this is for a 50 card set.

While it is a bad idea to rely on population reports for accuracy in their numbers, thats still a pretty low number of graded examples in comparison with some of the other "E" sets out there.

Richard,

Was hoping to come down during a weekday to the National but it is iffy now. Already had plans to be at the jersey shore with family on the weekend and my days off are getting low because I've been down there a lot this summer.

Not totally counting it out yet as its only a two hour drive away if I can manage a day off to make the trip. We'll see.

Scott

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