John and the Kevin mess

This is more of an open letter to John than anything. I want to thank you, Jim, Dan and everyone else involved in exposing the t206museum scandal. Having said this, one thing always bothered me about your posting of a 3rd party email and Jim's post

its all good Kevin. I admit your first post bothered me a bit and you
second post is greatly appreciated. It took alot of time and help from
several collectors to figure that out and PROVE it-not just think it.
JR

here last night reminded me of it:

Given all the good work and due diligence you did before exposing Chan and the t206museum website, why in the world would you come forth with a 3rd party email and NO proof to back up the thing that worried you the most, Kevin planted altered cards in other people collections that he did not like?

If you truly, honestly believed to be true, then you had something as big or bigger than than Chan and something that was also worthy of FBI involvement.

If you really do believe the statement is true, how would he go about planting cards in other people's collections? He doesn't sell cards and to do it through a 3rd party seller would be really impressive if he could get a particular card into a certain collection. Also, given your past history with him, don't think you would be target #1?

John, from what I've been able to figure out from your disagreements with Kevin is that you don't like the way he operates, claiming to be an altruist in the hobby, but you think otherwise. You've given that same impression to me about yourself, especially with recent t206museum work, but yet, here you are, doing something that looks more like a hatched job against someone you don't like rather than the great piece of work you did on t206museum/Chan.

Where is the proof and due diligence here? You didn't come forward about the whole t206museum thing until you had proof. So why was this different?

I'd also like to make a comment about those people that think want Chan did was not as bad as the claim against Kevin because Chan's acts weren't personal. Let me ask you people this, is what Enron, the financial institions or a gunman in a clock tower shooting random people less of a crime than one that is targeted against an individual? The indiscriminate crimes scare me the most because they don't stop until they are caught. Crimes on a personal level end there.

/rant off/

Jay

Jay
the post I was refering to was-

"Perhaps I am a little naive but I thought most collectors knew they were altered. I saw them on the t206museum was immediately suspicious and never really followed them. Considered it somewhat of a joke and a no-brainer. Feel the same about most of the stamped backed cards. Just "way" too easy to do!

Now that I read the stories I am shocked to find that collectors were spending serious money these overprints. Hope they all get their money back."



in the thread T206 Museum-Who is the author-posting that email was John.
JR

Jim, I knew that, but you comment in big bold letters PROVE, reminded that John had not proved anything that he was revealing about Kevin, yet didn't reveal anything about Chan/t206museum until things were proven. It just struck me wrong that John was deriding Kevin for having alterior motives for what he does, yet his posting of the 3rd party email (which could have easily been faked if someone wanted to) without any proof as to what he was revealing, smacks of the very thing that he has been after Kevin for.

I've always liked John and never had a problem with him, but this doesn't sit well with me and no one else bothered to ask this elsewhere.

Jay

John, the biggest problem I have is that your source is a 3rd party email. Granted, Kevin admitted to these statements, but you know that emails can be easily doctored. This should be worry #1 one that this might not be legit.

The second worry is his statement. If you think it is true, then how did he pull it off and who has these cards. You, or no one else has explained how he would be able to plant cards in certain people's collections. Given your history, I would think you would be the first person he would be targeting.

Kevin's statements are not good, but everyone holds grudges against someone and wishes them ill. When talking about those people, you tend to say over the top things, especially when you are talking to someone that feels the same way as you about that person.

I just wish you would have had more proof than a 3rd party email. It's internet version of hearsay.

Does Kevin's statements worry me...yes. Will I lose all respect for him...no. Not until there is solid proof that he has done something wrong. Too many people seem to be too willing to throw someone under the bus for preceived wrongs rather than actual wrong doing.

Be well and have a great weekend

Jay

"John, the biggest problem I have is that your source is a 3rd party email. Granted, Kevin admitted to these statements, but you know that emails can be easily doctored. This should be worry #1 one that this might not be legit."

Jay no I'm gulity of faking emails that's rich! Happy to forward the full string to whoever doubts it. LOL Jay did you even read your own quote above? LOL I love you Jay but man your are the one really reaching on this one not me.

"Granted, Kevin admitted to these statements, but you know that emails can be easily doctored. This should be worry #1 one that this might not be legit."

Boy this poor Kevin guy really gets the bum hand he's just admitting to all sorts of nasty things he never did.

Doctoring cards to stick in future collections of folks he hates.

Taking credit for already sticking one if not more than one in collections of folks that bummed him out.

Wishing he could take credit for a bad card in a collectors collection that is legit...but don't worry he's working on being able to make those in the future.

Now he's admiiting to an email that Wonka could have easily faked...wow this Kevin guy is just a real saint what a big guy.

"The second worry is his statement. If you think it is true, then how did he pull it off and who has these cards. You, or no one else has explained how he would be able to plant cards in certain people's collections. Given your history, I would think you would be the first person he would be targeting."

Did you read my email please read again I offered a way he could do such a thing...but once agian I dont need a smoking gun I have his own admission.
My history with him oh yeah the hostory in which I have asked Kevin countless times pointed fair questions like..

Why should we trust you over any other person who doctors cards?

Why would any grading company take your word over thier own if you say my graded card is no good, why would they refund me based on your opinion what makes you more of an expert?

If I ship cards to you for review do you have insurance are you bonded? Do you work from a secure location?

What are you showing us with the gloom and doom stuff? It's no news flash there are bogus cards and card doctors out there for no good...and by your own admission you're a card doctor why are you a good card doctor?

Yeah jay I can see how those over the top questions which Kevin has mostly dodged or given canned lame answers too are worthy of me being a target for fraud..LOL

For the record I'm not the least bit worried about Kevin in regards to me and my collection I'm not sending him cards or using his services. And there has been very little that Kevin has ever posted that made me say wow that was super information. Kevin doesn't like me becuase I ask questions I don't just blindly kiss his butt as some god, and the questions I ask rain on his parade with logic.

Just so I'm clear Jay you support his comments and think it's ok to wish folks ill will if you're rubbed the wrong way. You also think it's ok to be heated enough to lie or make up stories about fraud and targeted fake cards to folks that at one time or another bummed you out?

By the way that is a total line this was no white lie or joke, Kevin took the only defense he could have the I'm full of you know what defense. Because the alternative was I'm a crook who is out to screw members of a forum that pissed me off. The same forum who let me grandstand for the better part of 2 years or more...that's real big of him. What a trust worthy guy can't wait to ask PSA or SGC for a refund based on this guys opinion that should be a fun conversation...LOL

Jay those comments were wrong and a wrong doing in themselves reagardless of actual bogus cards in my hand. Honest good folks who care about this hobby and the good of the hobby safety for all a stance Kevin has taken on more than one occasion just dont type stuff like that!

Cheers,

John

wonkaticket wrote:He brags in the very email that he has reviewed thousand of cards for collectors, he even alludes that they don’t pay but they always find a way to take care of him.

Kevin has reviewed at least 100 of my cards. His thoughts have changed the way I collect (mainly being very comfortable with cards in SGC holders and not comfortable with high grade cards in PSA holders), I feel better about my collection due to his comments to me.

I have never given Kevin a dime. I do take care of him though. Do you want to know how? I gave him some cookies from a Korean bakery once. Another time, I paid for lunch at Olive Garden. Oh, yes, I think another time I bought him a Diet Coke.

I find this entire thing very disturbing, I mean come on, Olive Garden King? What, no decent Italian places in the Boston area?

Bicem wrote:I find this entire thing very disturbing, I mean come on, Olive Garden King? What, no decent Italian places in the Boston area?

Unlimited soup and salad...and breadsticks too! You can't beat the deal!

John, I am not accusing you of faking emails. I am pointing out that 3rd party emails are easy to fake or alter.

You posted that email prior to his admitting to anything. You had no proof of anything other than a 3rd party email. that's pretty shaky grounds to for trying to ruin someone's reputation and I am sure you wouldn't be happy if some did the same to you, so why would you do it to someone else.

Just so I'm clear Jay you support his comments and think it's ok to wish folks ill will if you're rubbed the wrong way. You also think it's ok to be heated enough to lie or make up stories about fraud and targeted fake cards to folks that at one time or another bummed you out?

I didn't say it's OK for people wish ill of others, I said everyone is guilty of it. Even you, unless you are a saint.

My job is not to provide a detailed report to you that Kevin is up to no good that’s for you to decide based on what was said.

So you don't a have problem if someone posts a 3rd party email about you and some blow hard statement that you've made and that we should then condem you for this? Hell, let's just post every rumor we've heard about everyone and let people make up their minds about everyone that way. What wonderful world this would be.

I don't condone in any way what Kevin wrote, whether it is fact or fiction. I also don't condone the way you went about this because when you posted that email, it was nothing more than hearsay which makes it a hatchet job on Kevin's reputation without anything to back it up.

If you are going to post something that will ruin someone's reputation, I'd expect a little more than hearsay and rumor.

Jay

Gentlemen:

This incident between Kevin and (the world?) John, appears to me to be one in which overreacting prevails.

For example:
"Option A: Kevin is braggart and blowhard who likes to tell stories (Incriminating) offline in private emails. Which means he isn’t 100% truthful with what he discusses which blows his creditability as a non-biased expert in the field of doctored cards.

Option B: The very clear nature of his statements are just that he’s bragging about genuine things that he has done to alter cards and place them in the hobby out of pure spite. This would make him a Patrick Chan type offender.

Either one is not good (A.) makes him not trustworthy and collectors should think twice before sending Kevin cards and or doing deals and (B.) makes him a criminal plain and simple."


I think that the truth is much closer to ..... Kevin has made an error in judgement here. He appears to have fabricated a scenario which although possible, is actually fanciful. I haven't made this error in quite some time, but it is not an unheard of mistake among many of us.


"No hatchet job here Jay,"

Agreed John. I am sure that I have missed the bulk of your commentary regarding Kevin, however, I have witnessed many inquiries. And 100% of what I have observed will fall into the following description: "My history with him oh yeah the hostory in which I have asked Kevin countless times pointed fair questions"


Does Kevin's statements worry me...yes. Will I lose all respect for him...no.
Agreed Jay. However, not really much of a worry for me. I think that many of us have come to understand Kevin a bit, his motivation, aspiration and philosophy.

I have no ponies in this race, no axes to grind, nor great insight. However, I do believe that there are more important things going on than jumping on each incident in which a perceived threat can be identified.

"I'd expect a little more than hearsay and rumor."

An email typed by the person himself and then confirmed by that person is not hearsay or rumor. Would I be mad if somebody posted an email where I hinted at or admitted to fraud nope I would expect you too and shame on you if you dont let the community know. IMO

This is not an email with Kevin talking trash or calling names, its an admission of fraud or as Kevin says an outright lie he made up himself.

I'm very sorry you are unable to see that.

I spoke my peace above do what you want with the information as I said...

"If you are going to post something that will ruin someone's reputation, I'd expect a little more than hearsay and rumor."

If Kevin's rep has a spot on it he has nobody to blame but himself period he needs to except that and perhaps so should you?

Jay I'm done debating this with you I said above you or others will do what you want with the info. If you're cool with Kevin great...I am not cool and he has lost any and all creditabilty with me.

Cheers,

John

This is ridiculous, Kevin admitted it and it is down right frightening for someone NEW on the scene claiming to be an expert! Where is the question here????


The emails are valid, Kevin admitted them, yes maybe he was blowing off steam but in the position he was trying to put him self in EXPERT, you just can't do that.

God who is the cheapskate for free bread sticks and salad????


Jay, you are wrong here, sorry, Dan.

P.S. I think Kevin means well but have always questioned his expertise as he is no expert to me, sorry.

Dan, I am not condoning what Kevin said. My whole point is how this brought about, with a 3rd party email, which is essentially the internet version of hearsay. Kevin admitted to everything after the fact. There was absolutely no proof of anything prior to that. I would have never posted that email without having gotten some more proof first. Posting the email with no thing to back it up just makes the posting of it look like a hatchet job. Kevin admitted to writing it. That's great. He owned up to it, but also offered explanation that has been outright dismissed without proof otherwise. Everything here is way to flimsy to be believed as gospel truth until someone can show that Kevin actually planted altered cards in someone's collection. If that is the case, then that really is scary. Probably the scariest thing this hobby has seen if it's true.

Does this change my view of Kevin. Yes. But I will not out right dismiss him and what he is trying to do as many have until someone can prove that he really has done something horrible.

John, one more question, if it's not your job to prove that Kevin did what you think he did, then why did you feel you had to prove what was going on with the t206museum? Should you have made a similar post about Chan and the museum and let people decide for themselves? According to you there both a blight on the hobby yet you diligently did something about one and pass the buck on another.

Jay

Jay

I almost always agree with you Jay, but this time I don't. I think John was right to post the email.

1) Yes 3P emails can be faked, but I think it's clear that in this case it wasn't. There were so many facts surrounding this that pointed to this being a genuine comment that I think it was fair to conclude that it was likely an unaltered statement. I also think John provided a ton of context and seemed to go out of his way to make sure he included background, players, the path of the email, etc.

2) A really big thing here is that we have to distinguish between the statement itself and the act claimed in the statement.

First, the act. Did it happen? Maybe. I don't know. Probably not. I don't know. I think that a lot of discussion assumes that the way he could get a card into a particular collection would be if that collector sent him a card to review. I think there are other ways. He could put it on the BST or ebay under a different name or seller. Some of these people - Lichtman in particualr - have narrow and well-known collecting habits. Everyone knows that Lichtman will win/own pretty much any unusual Cobb or Chase that is out there - picking something unusual or in very high-end shape could be a very reliable way of getting it into Lichtman's collection.

Further, he adds the odd and very unneccessary afterthought by saying that putting these cards in the collections actually cost him money. That just seems strange to me from a braggart-theory standpoint.

But when it comes to the act, you are right in that it may never be proved or disproved.

Now the statement, that is different. That is proved. That did happen. I'm not sure that the gist of John's posts are directly and solely about the act at all. Not speaking for anyone here, but it seems like an emphasis of the posts and what a lot of people find alarming is the statement itself, totally independent from the act and whether he ever actually did it. Because whether he did it or not, he could do it if he wanted.

The biggest problem with the statement is that Kevin made it. Not someone like me, or Dan Bretta, or Ben or any of the other known collectors and posters. Yes, it would be bad no matter who made it, but the fact that Kevin made it is what makes it so much worse. He has claimed to be a defender of the hobby, sought status as an expert and protector from fraud, and even dabbled in making it a financial undertaking for awhile there. For someone to so clearly stake out ground based on having an unwaverable position and then make a statement that is wholly inconsistent with that position totally kills the credibility.

I know that everyone makes inconsistent statements - no one would ever want to have to live by every word ever said. But it is completely different when it is in direct regards to something that you have made the main purpose and stake of almost everything you say. For something that a person claims - even insists - is so important, I think society does believe that the person is probably a bit more careful in speaking on that area - less likely to make careless and poorly thought out comments that are in total contradiction to all previous claims of principle. That expectation of significant consistency is also human nature.

So it's the statement that is really in issue here. And I think that was fair game to publicize regardless of the strength of belief as to whether the act itself ever happened. It could absolutely be just a case of poor judgment, but in this case that may be enough to damage his credibility for some people.

Joann

IMHO, JMK59 = Wrong.

It is wrong to post private communications (save that sort of posturing for trials).

"The Act" = as you might say .... lol.
enjoy your soap opera, but recognize that it is yours.

Go ahead with your mole hills, I offer no shovel.

Honestly Gil, I'm not the least little bit surprised that you think what I wrote is wrong. It did, after all, come from me. That's usually enough.

J

J:
I am surprised that you feel that my comments are personally oriented.
In this medium, I find that minimized. I assure you that I harbor no negative feelings toward you; and my motivations are fact based.
So, if you offer a further explanation, it will be evaluated by us all. Otherwise is otherwise.
Gil
realy j, why would I dislike you?

At this exact second:

We have more viewers than Net 54.

sabrjay wrote:
John, one more question, if it's not your job to prove that Kevin did what you think he did, then why did you feel you had to prove what was going on with the t206museum? Should you have made a similar post about Chan and the museum and let people decide for themselves? According to you there both a blight on the hobby yet you diligently did something about one and pass the buck on another.

Jay

Jay

Jay I told you I was done I have explained this all to clear. When and if I have a confession from anyone admitting to fraud it will be made public.

I'm not the person you should be spending all this energy on Jay.

For the record the proper response is "Dude this sucks I'm not thriled this had to go down this way but I understand why you did what you did Kevin should have never said anything like that! Kevin WTF is wrong with you why would you say such a thing??????"

Try that on for size for few seconds before you hop back on the Wonka did the wrong thing bus....

You're happy taking a chance getting ripped off fine but there's other collectors out here in the hobby myself included who don't take the it's all good Kevin approach.

John

JoAnn very well put as always...and when NASA finally decodes what Gil said I let you know...LOL

For the record the proper response is "Dude this sucks I'm not thriled
this had to go down this way but I understand why you did what you did
Kevin should have never said anything like that! Kevin WTF is wrong
with you why would you say such a thing??????"

that pretty much sums up my sentiments but you can add "Dude, that really sucked you posted a 3rd email with nothing else to back it up."

It doesn't look good to me from any angle.

Have a great weekend

Jay

Okay, I'll take one last stab at this, although I don't think anything I say will make a difference. I told the truth once and it was of no use. I expect crap from John as this is his M.O. but I am very disappointed in Dan.

I did not give my permission to have that email posted and asked that it be removed. I also do not give my permission to have my posts copied and pasted from here to net54...although John will probably do it anyways...what a piece of work .

Some of my email string has been taken out of context and is being twisted. Seems parts were even removed to make it look worse. To start, Scott emailed me out of the blue and asked that if some randomly posted t206 brown/yellow proof was my handy work. My reply:

“I wish...but no. Although I can make many or some of the colors disappear and
come close, I don't know of a way to keep the yellows, name, borders and the
light shades. Yellow ink is about the 2nd to go. I've tried man many times to
recreate this and can't come close to the detail.”

Next, I did lie about sending out altered cards. After Scott and I were being relentlessly attacked over the underprint card (for no reason), privately I thought maybe it would make Scott feel a little better if he thought someone was getting them back. Yes, it was wrong to say. WTF was I thinking? I was thinking I was pretty friggin' pissed because I was getting beat to hell for just corresponding with the guy!

How could I selectively place an altered card in a collection? I have no idea who most on net54 are, let alone where they live?

I have only sold one card in the past 7-years and have never sold a card through anyone else. I only
collect. Other than volunteering, I don't work for any grading company or auction house. I doctor when I can and share the info I learn with as much transparency as I think will do the least amount of harm to the hobby. Never even made a penny from any cards I've examined and when I consult, it's at no cost...except for the Olive Garden and those awesome Korean cookies!

To my knowledge, no altered card of mine has made it into the hobby. I am no savior of the hobby, never made the claim to be an expert until some hobby elitists’ made reference to it. I do despise corruption and try "the best I know how" to help other identify them.

Didn't want to come across as an ass or a "blowhard", just always thought those overprints were fake (as well as stamps) but never really made my suspicions public. I had no idea the museum was selling them and did not know one was listed in REA until Rob notified me. He advised me about the investigation, I gave him my thoughts on what to look for (as I did with the Doyle) and he asked that I keep it a secret until it was all over. Still didn't want to go public with this but perhaps it will help some know I now prefer to work behind the scenes.

My comment about replacing the term "clowns" with "assholes" was direct and to the point. I was meant for a select few. Those who were brow beating me for simply offering an opinion on a card that
belonged to someone disliked by so many.

Leon suggested I should "get some advice from my good friend Rooster Boy." Other than a few emails, I barely know Scott. I can care less what he did/does with roosters or chickens or that he lives in a trailer...or wherever. I do see some criticize him for being disabled, which I think is terrible. I myself am a disabled veteran...got something to say about that?


I see that Leon is calling me a fraud and a criminal...is he kidding!?! I’ve never done anything to him or anyone.