19th Century Sets Scarcity ranking

Reading the E card thread made me think about 19th century sets and their relative scarcity. Thought it might be fun to try a similar thread for 19th century cards/cabinets/pins. I will get it started with my thoughts...

Revised List

One Known

Gypsy Queen California League

Almost impossible

OJ California League
Four Base Hits
Kalamazoo Bats - NY
Just So Tobacco
Alpha Engraving
Gypsy Queen Large
SF Hess California
League Photos (N338-1)

Exceedingly difficult

Peck and Snyder team cards
Kalamazoo Bats Team cards
M117 Sporting Life
N173 Old Judge Colored Mounts (Red, Blue, Black, Gold)
N167 Old Judge
Kalamazoo Bats cabinets
Police Gazette cabinets
SF Hess California League Color

Very difficult

G & B gum
SF Hess Major League
N526 No. 7 Cigar
Lorrilard team cards
Yum Yum tobacco
Lone Jack
Newsboy Cabinets
Cameo Pepsin Pins
Kalamazoo Bats

Difficult

Gypsy Queen
Duke Cabinets
Old Judge Cabinets
N162 Goodwin Champions


Easy (by 19th century card standards)

N43 Allen and Ginter
N29 Allen and Ginter
Kimballs
Buchner's
Mayo Cut Plug
N28 Allen and Ginter

Very Easy

Old Judge (common)

I am sure I am missing some sets - feel free to add or comment!

First one I can think that is missing is the Newsboys.. Not sure where to rank them.

I would put 1886 J Wood cabinets under almost impossible. Close to only 1 example of each exist.

(I'm shameless)

Can private studio cabinets really be considered cards? I don't know much about 19c cabinets but I would assume that most studio cabinets are pretty mcuh one of a kind. Even if there was more than one produced I can't imagine it was more than enough for immediate family or business associates.

Don't get me wrong, I think they are great pieces, but if they weren't something that could be bought by the public then how can they be considered a card?

Chris, just wondering on your definition of scarcity....ability to obtain one example or to complete the set or difficulty to obtain a specific example?
An initial comment is that I think it would be much easier to get an Alpha than a Gypsy Queen Large.
Also, Kimballs are much easier than the rest in that category, same as an OJ common is much easier to obtain than the others in that category.

rman444 wrote:I would put 1886 J Wood cabinets under almost impossible. Close to only 1 example of each exist.

(I'm shameless)

J Wood cabinets are only difficult because rman owns almost all of them.

We need to find a place for Newsboy Cabinets and Police Gazette cabinets.

sabrjay wrote:Can private studio cabinets really be considered cards? I don't know much about 19c cabinets but I would assume that most studio cabinets are pretty mcuh one of a kind. Even if there was more than one produced I can't imagine it was more than enough for immediate family or business associates.

Don't get me wrong, I think they are great pieces, but if they weren't something that could be bought by the public then how can they be considered a card?

Good questions, Jay. Many people believe that cabinets do not qualify as cards simply by size. Others because of distribution. My minimal knowledge of studio cabinets is that in general many were made for the individuals and close family and friends. However, there were some that were made for public distribution and advertising (for both the subject and the studio) and could be ordered directly from the photographer. I believe that the J Wood series, which has the photos of the individual players in uniform as well as a team composite, falls into the later category. The fact that more than one example existing for a few of the subjects supports this belief as well.

Elliot, for this list I was thinking of just obtaining one example from the sets mentioned.

Looking at the list again, I think your suggestions are probably accurate. The large version of the GQ's are tougher than I have them, and the Kimballs (and maybe even the N43's) belong in the easy category.

Also agree that OJ's are in a category of their own - they are the T206s of the 19th century...

Gypsy Queen California League players should be listed at the absolute top of the “almost impossible” category. One example exists and it will likely stay where it is for an extremely long time. Also, I believe that the N690 Kalamazoo Bats set should be divided with New York players (Mets and Giants) being placed in the “exceedingly difficult” category.

Forgot about the split in rarity in the K-bats. I never knew there was a Cal League GQ. Now that's a true rarity.

Good catch Zach - I forgot about that GQ California League card - I remember reading about it in an issue of SCD in the 90's I believe.

Revised List

One Known

Gypsy Queen California League

Almost impossible

OJ California League
Four Base Hits
Kalamazoo Bats - NY
Just So Tobacco
Alpha Engraving
Gypsy Queen Large
SF Hess California
League Photos (N338-1)

Exceedingly difficult

Peck and Snyder team cards
Kalamazoo Bats Team cards
M117 Sporting Life
N173 Old Judge Colored Mounts (Red, Blue, Black, Gold)
N167 Old Judge
Kalamazoo Bats cabinets
SF Hess California League Color

Very difficult

G & B gum
SF Hess Major League
N526 No. 7 Cigar
Lorrilard team cards
Yum Yum tobacco
Lone Jack
Cameo Pepsin Pins
Kalamazoo Bats

Difficult

Gypsy Queen
Duke Cabinets
Old Judge Cabinets


Easy
(by 19th century card standards)

Mayo Cut Plug
N43 Allen and Ginter
N29 Allen and Ginter
Kimballs
N28 Allen and Ginter

Very Easy

Old Judge (common)

I disagree with breaking out OJ and GQ California cards. No question they are tougher than the regular version, but it's not much different than me saying that a McPhee N173 should be in the only one known category, or more broadly Cincinnati HOF N173's. They weren't a separate issue but were part of a bigger issue.
Same thing with Kbats NY.
Also, if we break those out, why not break out spotted ties, etc. from the OJ issue?

I think 338-1 is not nearly as difficult as we have it on the list. A type can be picked up (relatively) easily and they are offered at auction commonly.
I think it would be tougher to pick up an example of a Duke Cab than a N526, IMO just a function of the size of the set.

pro9 wrote:I think 338-1 is not nearly as difficult as we have it on the list. A type can be picked up (relatively) easily and they are offered at auction commonly.

Really E? Are you sure you're not thinking about the N338-2 Hess set (Oval portraits of major leaguers)? Because I always thought the N338-1 set (SF Hess Cali B&W's) were next to impossible to find. They are much, much more difficult than the N338-2's IMO.

If I were to make any changes to the revised list, I'd bump the Kbats NY down a few spots in "almost impossible" group and bump up N167 a few spots in the "exceedingly difficult" group. I do realize that the Kbats NY's are on a completely different level than regular N690's though. Great job with the list overall though Chris.

N338-1



N338-2

Really E? Are you sure you're not thinking about the N338-2 Hess set
(Oval portraits of major leaguers)? Because I always thought the N338-1
set (SF Hess Cali B&W's) were next to impossible to find. They are
much, much more difficult than the N338-2's IMO.

My bad, I glanced at the list too quickly.

Ben, I don't think Chris distinguished between difficulty in each specific category.

M117 Sporting Times Cabinets would have to be pretty high up on the difficulty scale

Elliot, I tried to distinguish a bit within the categories - toughest at the top etc. It was a very hastily designed list from that standpoint though, so I am sure a lot of flip-flopping could be done.

Mostly I wanted to get a good thread going about 19th century cards, and it looks like we have accomplished that...

TheBig6 wrote:M117 Sporting Times Cabinets would have to be pretty high up on the difficulty scale

Yep absolutely. Probably on the lower end of the first tier.

Zach, have you seen a scan of this GQ Cali leaguer? Sounds amazing.

There's also the 1887 Red Stocking Cigar card of Radbourn....the only one I've ever seen for sale was in the most recent REA auction:

Ben,

I've seen an image of it, yes. It's a brilliant card, a portrait, and certainly an oddball. It exchanged hands a few years ago and has found its way into a permanent collection.

N173 Dogshead Cabinets are atleast 10X tougher than Old Judge
Just saying.

mzm55 wrote:Ben,

I've seen an image of it, yes. It's a brilliant card, a portrait, and certainly an oddball. It exchanged hands a few years ago and has found its way into a permanent collection.

A portrait too, huh? Very intriguing card Zach, would love to see what it looks like. Sounds like it won't leave that collection for a long time.

Jerry I agree...N173 Dog's Head gets a huge bump on the ranking. Ditto for the black border N173's. This ranking could get pretty complicated with all the rare 19th century stuff out there.

Added a few to the list

Lorillard team cards
M117 Sporting Life
N173 Colored Mounts

Now I know the N173 colored mounts are not a different set, but I think they are different enough to categorize separately. Just my opinion though.

Speaking of the colored mounts - anyone have a scan of a red or a blue OJ cabinet mount?

Did we overlook N284 Buchner Gold coins in the easy catagory.
Also, I don't know if were considering Playing cards but there are the WG1's