T215 Red Cross Scarcity vs. Other "T" sets

It would be interesting if we could expand the list to include other scarce T sets like:

T217 Mono
T209 Contentnea (two types)
T208 Cullivan's Fireside

Anyone wanna give it a shot? I'd say the Monos and Firesides are near the top, and the T209's in the lower/mid tier (colors are tougher).

why not add tougher t206 backs in there too while you're at it...what ru...chicken?

here's my attempt:


1) t208 Cullivans Fireside
1a) T215 Pirate
2) T214 Victory
----------------------------(gap)
3) T216 Virginia Extra
3a) T217 Mono
4) T215-1
5) T215-2 (blue script)
6) T213-1
6a)T209 color
7) T216 Kottons
8) T211 Red Sun
---------------------------(gap)
10) T213-3
10a) T209 b/w
---------------------------(gap)
11) T213-2

Once we agree on these...we can try to add t206...if anyone cares!

looks pretty good to me Pete.

Jay

Nice, Pete. I agree with your placement of the T217's and T209's. I might put the T208's as a 2a alongside the Victories. A year ago they could very well have occupied the #1 slot, but with the recent Cullivan's find, things have changed a bit (they're still insanely tough though)

These rare T cards, along with nineteenth century stuff, are some of the best investments out there, imo. Anyone have a Pirate to show off to the board? I will do my part with this:

rman444 wrote:
Kottons can be broken down as well into thin and thick categories. The thick versions are about right at 8, but the thin versions should be put a bit higher.

Another good point Richard. I thought about doing this when I did the list. Problem was, I had a hard time breaking them down.

Based on my sampling of T216's that I currently own, or that have passed through my hands:

Thin stock Type 3's:
I own 14 examples.

Glossy/thick stock Type 1's:
I currently own 8 but have handled 10

Glossy/thick stock Type 2's:
I currently own 8 but have handled 10.

So if we're only looking at Thin vs. Thick, 41% of my total number owned have been thins, vs. 59% thicks.

But if we were to break these down to types (1 vs. 2 vs. 3), type 3's are more prevalent then each of the other two brands: 41% vs. 29.5% vs. 29.5%.

With that large find(near set of t215 pirates) a few years ago...I think there were 96 of them...I'd rank t208's ahead of t215 in terms of rarity. I dont even think there are half that many t208's known? I could be wrong here...but I'd guess there are quantities of t214's out there as well...buried in collections. Tough ones to rank?

Conservatively, I'd say there are at least 5 of each of the cards known. From what I've heard there are two complete sets and know of one individual with almost 30 t208s. That over 100 cards. I'd guess there might be about 150 examples to total for t208s.

With the big Pirate find, they might be neck and neck now.

ullmandds wrote:here's my attempt:


1) t208 Cullivans Fireside
1a) T215 Pirate
2) T214 Victory
----------------------------(gap)
3) T216 Virginia Extra
3a) T217 Mono
4) T215-1
5) T215-2 (blue script)
6) T213-1
6a)T209 color
7) T216 Kottons
8) T211 Red Sun
---------------------------(gap)
10) T213-3
10a) T209 b/w
---------------------------(gap)
11) T213-2

Once we agree on these...we can try to add t206...if anyone cares!

My fault guys. In the shuffle of putting the updated list together above Pete's I somehow left out the T216 MINO's (which I have since edited to fix).

1) t208 Cullivans Fireside
1a) T215 Pirate
2) T214 Victory
----------------------------(gap)
3) T216 Virginia Extra
3a) T217 Mono
4) T216 MINO
5) T215-1
6) T215-2 (blue script)
7) T213-1
7a)T209 color
8) T216 Kottons
9) T211 Red Sun
---------------------------(gap)
10) T213-3
10a) T209 b/w
---------------------------(gap)
11) T213-2

here are a few:
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By the way.....I love this thread! What a great subject matter, and I can get my 2 cents in. I'm definitely comfortable with it.

jay, i believe the t208 set consists of 18 cards...so by your estimate of 5 known cards each...more like 90 known cards or so.

Arrr... Matey!

From what I know, there are or were two complete sets. The person I know of that has almost 30 doesn't not have a complete set. That puts 60+ cards in the hands of 3 people. I seriously doubt that 60% of the known cards are owned by 3 people. There several other people trying to put together set and lord knows how many people with type cards in their collection.

Other than the huge Pirate find, I've never heard of anyone owning any quantity of Pirate cards.

Jay

ullmandds wrote:With that large find(near set of t215 pirates) a few years ago...I think there were 96 of them...I'd rank t208's ahead of t215 in terms of rarity. I dont even think there are half that many t208's known? I could be wrong here...but I'd guess there are quantities of t214's out there as well...buried in collections. Tough ones to rank?

Good point about the Pirate find Pete. I think it was complete minus one card? Not sure. They were all in very nice shape, and I recall them being slabbed by SGC (with many grading very high). They all went to one buyer and they weren't broken up, so chances are they won't hit the market again for many years. Hard to rank them vs. the T208 Cullivans Firesides, but suffice to say that they're both extremely tough and belong at the top of our list (likely right next to eachother).

Here are a few links to T215 Pirates that sold recently, the REA one in 2008 and the Goodwin just this year. Pretty phenomenal prices for AUT's. Isn't the prevailing theory that they were all handcut?

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/441.html

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=14173

It is always difficult for me to get my head around how many different ways people can view rarity. I believe that most, when ranking, are coming from the perspective of how many examples with a specific back are known, regardless of front. Others view it as how many examples of a specific player are known with a certain back.

ie - T215 Pirate may be around a 100 card set, and there is around only 1 of each player known to exist. However, if T208 Fireside is an 18 card set and there are 5 of each player known (5 complete sets = 90 total examples), then would you consider the Pirate set or the Fireside set tougher?

There is no correct answer, as this is more of a type collector vs. set/player collector argument.

For me, the Pirate set is the rarer set.

crazylocomerk wrote:
My fault guys. In the shuffle of putting the updated list together above Pete's I somehow left out the T216 MINO's (which I have since edited to fix).

Eric,

Shame on you!

Don't ever forget the Mino!

I guess from that perspective...I'd probably agree...that less copies of each player are known for the t215 pirate...and therefore is more rare. based on prices commanded recently for pirates...they are indeed rare and desirable!

Holy shnikies Richard, that's a sweet T216 Mino Wagner! Yours? Interesting how it lists Wagner as a 2B. I wonder if t216 is the only issue that lists him as a 2B and not SS - anyone know?

I agree that the Pirates are more scarce overall than Cullivans and Victories - although not by much.

Funny...I just resubscribed to Old Cardboard and I was catching up on the issues I had missed and there was an article comparing the wagner cards and how 1 variation listed him at 2nd base...I'll check when I get home...but I'm not sure if it was referring to t216's?

As someone relatively new to these super tough to get ahold of sets, do you know of anyone that has a complete T215 RC set, either type 1 OR 2? Ive always found it an interesting and rewarding endeavor to try to assemble complete sets of vintage cards (havent done so yet!), so are any of these sets "completeable" in the current market? I am really considering attempting a RC type 1 set, or am I better off trying for a type set of each tough "T" in the long run? This really has turned out to be a great thread! Plenty of different opinions, and none can be considered "wrong"! Thanks guys!

Brandon

I'm not sure if a complete T215 Red Cross set exists; it's certainly possible though. I do know that attempting one (even just the type 1's) would be an extremely daunting task. It would take many years and a serious amount of cash to assemble, not to mention a great deal of patience and dedication to the effort.

Personally, I think you'd be better off assembling a type set of the tough "T" issues. That way you get a sampling from each of these fascinating sets, and the task wouldn't be nearly as arduous - it sounds like alot of fun actually!

Is there an accepted checklist of RC T1-T2s? I know there is some variation between the amount of cards in the checklists on the SGC registry and the Standard Catalog. Are there extra-difficult to find "commons" like there are with other sets?