The 'Restored' Wagner on REA

by LucasRiley Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:33 pm

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=18282

Has the lore of the Wagner T206 reached such a point that a 'restored' (translation, it seems to me: altered) version is going to sell for over $200K? It certainly looks that way.

What's the general thought here? Do you all consider this a 'valid' and desirable card? If it can sell for this kind of coin, I guess it is desirable on at least one level, by definition. From a strictly collecting point of view, though, the card seems inauthentic to me. Do others see it differently?

by sabrjay Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:18 pm

It's not a reprint so it is authentic. It's just not in its original state. Every collector is different but for some, appearance is very important regardless if the card is altered or not. Others are purists and only want and an unaltered example.

While it has had extensive restoration, it does have nice eye appeal now and I'm guessing the cost of restoration is going to be well worth it.

The question now is, after the hammer falls, how many more low grade Wagners are going to get restored? As long as it's documented, like this one, I really don't have a problem with it. It's sort of like restoring a work of art. I don't think anyone would argue that value or desirability of the art work in the Sistine Chapel has gone down since its restoration.

by ullmandds Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:55 pm

I understand the whole analogy comparing bb cards to priceless works of art and such regarding restoration...but personally...I don't like it...and I wouldn't want a restored card in my collection.

But I should add that my collection is not "world class"...and I don't aspire for it to ever be...I will never be in the market for 6 figure cards...and I've never been critical of condition as much as many are...so I like my beaterish-vg-ex ish cards...but I don't like altered cards...and I never will!

by bowlingshoeguy Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:58 am

This hobby has proven that people with money make some weird choices where to spend it.

By the way, Do you think this card would get huge money if restored (not that it needs it)?

Lee

by fisherboy7 Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:06 am

I much prefer the unrestored wagner, with 3 borders trimmed off and most of the back missing. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single example of restoration making a card more desirable to me.

by cccc Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:33 am

fisherboy7 wrote:I much prefer the unrestored wagner, with 3 borders trimmed off and most of the back missing. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single example of restoration making a card more desirable to me.

was the unrestored wagner better than what ben is describing? for sure it wouldn't get the same price w/o the restoration imo...so whoever made the decision to restore it did the right business move there.

i'd rather have the restored than the card ben is describing, but not at paying 3x...

by jbonie Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:45 am

Not so sure, an authentic wags went at heritage for about 200k (the nuns).

It's a stunning restoration job. Bottom line is wags is an elite HOFer and there's only 60 of his cards in existence while probably six hundred or more people collect the set. Those are the two reasons for the price right there.

by cccc Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:31 am

maybe just a "placeholder" for the winning bidder until he could find a better example...has a wagner ever gotten less than the one sold before the last 4-5 years even in this down time?

by LucasRiley Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:34 pm

jbonie wrote:Not so sure, an authentic wags went at heritage for about 200k (the nuns).

Interesting twist: Those nuns were the School Sisters of Notre Dame. They're actually affiliated with where I'm going to grad school, the College of Notre Dame of Maryland. They apparently got the card from the brother of one of the nuns, who passed away. I don't think they really even knew what they had until somebody told them. It was trimmed, severely creased, and had even been laminated, yet they got $260K for it. Didn't keep the college from jacking up tuition, though. pray

by fisherboy7 Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:58 pm

cccc wrote:
fisherboy7 wrote:I much prefer the unrestored wagner, with 3 borders trimmed off and most of the back missing. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single example of restoration making a card more desirable to me.

was the unrestored wagner better than what ben is describing? for sure it wouldn't get the same price w/o the restoration imo...so whoever made the decision to restore it did the right business move there.

i'd rather have the restored than the card ben is describing, but not at paying 3x...

by TheBig6 Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:26 pm

That Unrestored Wags definately has some character, I got paper stuff from my childhood in rougher condition than that.
I'm pretty old though The 'Restored' Wagner on REA 898299

by sabrjay Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:32 pm

The reason the Nun's Wagner went for so much is that the money went to charity, so whoever won got a big write off.

by jbonie Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:42 am

The high bidder actually defaulted on that card. It was then sold to someone. The buyer wouldn't get a write-off; the write-off would go to the consigner I believe.

by LucasRiley Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:44 pm

He defaulted on a bunch of little old nuns?! Wow. That sounds like an express ticket to someplace hot.

by sabrjay Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:02 pm

The winner gets a tax write off too. If you've ever been to sports team's auction where the money goes to charity, things go for stupid prices because it can be used as a tax write off.

by ValKehl Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:44 am

Hi Jay - I am puzzled by your comment that "the winner gets a tax write off too." I could be wrong, but I wouldn't think that the consignor and the buyer of the T206 Wagner would EACH be entitled to a charitable tax deduction for what the Wagner sold for. I would think that the consignor is normally entitled to the tax deduction, unless the consignor agrees to relinquish it to the buyer, which I assume is the case for many charity auctions. But again, I could be wrong.
Val

by sabrjay Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:14 am

I forget how it works, or used to work exactly, but if I remember correctly if you bought something from a charity auction you could write the amount above what the normal value would be. Not sure how you'd determine the value of a Wagner but I used to watch game worn jerseys that should have only sold for $100 sell for $500 or more. No way anyone paying that kind of money without getting something more than a jersey out of it.

by jbonie Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:16 am

I wonder if there is a legal difference between a charity auction and a card consigned by a non-profit to a company which is indeed taking a profit. Fortunately, we don't have any lawyers on this board to clarify.

by sabrjay Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:31 pm

There are a few lawyers but I think they prefer to keep a low profile as to profession and/or rarely post.

by Bicem Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:09 pm

jbonie wrote:

Bottom line is wags is an elite HOFer and there's only 60 of his cards in existence while probably six hundred or more people collect the set. .

man, this is a small hobby!

by sabrjay Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:22 pm

Thankfully, most people in the hobby don't collect t206s.

by TheBig6 Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:47 pm

Hmm, I would think it's the most collected pre-war set by a big margin.

by sabrjay Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:02 pm

It's the most collected set. No doubt, but I have no doubt that there are more collectors that don't collect t206s than do collect them. I guess if you count people that collected it at one time but don't anymore (like me), than it probably exceeds those that have never collected t206s.

This of course is discounting people who only collect modern issues.

by BigGuy219 Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:23 pm

It's the wrong question. It's not a matter of how many people collect T206s. It's a matter of how many people collect T206s AND can (and want to) spend a couple hundred thousand (or more!) on a Wagner.

by cccc Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:43 pm

people in the hobby that don't collect t206s otherwise might still want a wagner. the card is all-encompassing. there'll never be a shortage of demand for the card with people having the cash to buy it (inside or outside the hobby).

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