t207s questions

I figured this nice t207 find would be a good time to talk about the set. It's general knowledge that 1/2 the set is easy and 1/2 set is tough with the former comprising of Recruit and Napoleon backs with a few Anon and the tough cards found only with Cycle, Broadlead, Red Cross or Anonymous backs.

Napoleon backs were never really that common, but where have they gone? Five years ago you used to seem on eBay all the time. Now they are rarely seen.

How do the rare backs break down? Can each of them be found with different backs or are they found only on certain backs?

toughest back, brown recruit

Yeah, with this big find of Red Cross backs, I'd agree.

I've had 3 brown print recruits backs. Most T207 set collectors have one. Don't remember the last red cross T207 I've had.

Could be. I've been out of the t207 since I sold of mine about about 4 years ago.

Yea that is great that you have had 3 brown recruits, but what you are forgetting is that there are dozens of T207 sets in collections of old timers that don't even know the brown recruit exists. Not everyone has computers and keeps up with the hobby. I just went through near sets T205, T206 and T207 of a 65 year old radio announcer. though he doesn't have a red Cross back, and I agree that is a super tough back and possibly the toughest, he has never heard of a brown recruit back. Just an example.

This is why I laugh at population reports
Many people collected in the 60s and 70s that people entering the hobby in the late 80s and 90s or even in the last 10 years have no clue about.

Dan

I'm Jealous you get to look through old time collections like that. Doing something like that would make for a great day.

Lee

sabrjay wrote:I figured this nice t207 find would be a good time to talk about the set. It's general knowledge that 1/2 the set is easy and 1/2 set is tough with the former comprising of Recruit and Napoleon backs with a few Anon and the tough cards found only with Cycle, Broadlead, Red Cross or Anonymous backs.

Napoleon backs were never really that common, but where have they gone? Five years ago you used to seem on eBay all the time. Now they are rarely seen.

How do the rare backs break down? Can each of them be found with different backs or are they found only on certain backs?

This is background reading to many of you, but nonetheless ...

The T207 set breaks roughly into two groups - the "Recruit-class" (Recruit, Napoleon, some "Anonymous") and the "Broadleaf-class" (Broadleaf, Cycle, "Anonymous", and Red Cross). Not counting the "wrong-back" varieties, there are 155 cards of the Recruit class (150 cards + variations of Mullin, Fisher, Austin and two of Livingston) and 51 Broadleaf cards (50 + the Lewis no-emblem).

The Recruits come from either Factory 240 or 606 - all 155 cards are known from both factories. Napoleons only come from Factory 240 as far as I know - they are believed to be known for a large subset of the cards (possibly all?), but I don't know of a full population study to confirm. The "Anonymous Recruits" are an interesting subset - Tim Newcomb's article in VCBC #38 covers them in some detail. At this time, somewhere above 40 different cards are known of Tim's hypothesized 50 subjects.

On the "tough backs", I believe all 51 cards are known with all four main back varieties. I can confirm that Broadleaf and Cycle have all 51, and for Anonymous Factory 3 and Factory 25, I've not personally seen images or examples of only a handful of each - they'll likely all turn up. I believe 10 Red Cross cards are known to exist at the moment - more will likely appear given this latest find.

Both blank and brown backed Recruits are well established at this point. The latter have been found with both Factory 240 and Factory 606 backs. They're incredibly difficult, as Dan mentions, but it seems no one really cares, as there's usually a lot of ho-hum if you bring it up. Not sure how many are actually known, but it is at least a couple of small handfuls - more than Red Cross, I'm pretty sure. They can also be difficult to tell from scans, but if you hold a real one side-by-side with a black back, there's absolutely no question. In the examples below, the scans really don't do the brown justice.

For what little it is worth, there also appear to be quite a few brown or purple-ish printed backs in the "Anonymous" group of Broadleaf class cards as well. These go virtually unnoticed - likely due to the fact that the cards are scarce enough that people don't often have cards for comparison. As far as I'm aware, they carry basically no premium over their black print counterparts. Based on a card I picked up recently (see below) I can't discount that - at least for the Anon 3 cards - the purplish hue may be due to some discoloring effects, possibly due to liquids of some sort.

Anon 3 Kelly with mixed coloration:
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Black and Brown varieties of Gardner, Schaefer


Enough rambling. Its my favorite pre-war set, and a real obsession... some of you know that

Great post Mike. That's one I'll save among my documents.

Don't know much about recruit class anonymous. Are they all the same factory series? Which one. I have a few but they're at the bank so I can't check.

I know it's hard to rank backs in a general way since some players may be very hard to find with one particular back, but what would you say?

Recruit class hardest to easiest:

Anonymous
Napoleon
Recruit 606
Recruit 240

Broadleaf class hardest to easiest:

Red Cross
Broadleaf
Red Cycle
Anonymous (where would do rank the different factories?)

You're definitely correct about the brown text not showing up very well on the scans which is one main reason for the lack of excitement around them.

Still working on a master set?

Rob

Hi Dan,

In those dozens of sets that belong to old-timers are there any brown text recruit backs? I would guess "yes" since I happen to have two sitting in my set, but maybe I just got really lucky. Did you have one in your set?

I had a few folks email me scans of there brown text back that they found after it was brought to their attention that they existed.


Mike,

The anonymous discolored backs are really tough to classify. Is that fading similar to what we might see on different issues like E98 or even T206 Old Mill SL? I haven't seen one in person so not sure what to think on those. I like em though!

Rob

I took a lot of flack from people when I first brought to everyone's attention the brown recruit. Lots of people said it was just faded black ink. I think it was 2004 National I brought the card with and showed it to Dave Forman of SGC. He didn't he bat eye when I asked if SGC would slab it as a new back variation and as they say, the rest was history.

caramelcard wrote:Great post Mike. That's one I'll save among my documents.

Don't know much about recruit class anonymous. Are they all the same factory series? Which one. I have a few but they're at the bank so I can't check.

I know it's hard to rank backs in a general way since some players may be very hard to find with one particular back, but what would you say?

Recruit class hardest to easiest:

Anonymous
Napoleon
Recruit 606
Recruit 240

Broadleaf class hardest to easiest:

Red Cross
Broadleaf
Red Cycle
Anonymous (where would do rank the different factories?)

You're definitely correct about the brown text not showing up very well on the scans which is one main reason for the lack of excitement around them.

Still working on a master set?

Rob

Hey Rob,

Good to hear from you, and yes and no... I pick up cards when I can, and (surprisingly) avoided the entire fray around the last couple of weekends T207 feeding frenzy on eBay. Some of that was insane! And if you have any anon 3 Recruit's I need, you know I'll give em a good home!!

As for the relative hardness, I'd put the Anon 3 Recruits as harder than Napoleon, but by a whisker - likely because there's a larger population (# subjects) of the latter. I believe at least somewhere north of 100 or so Napoleons are accounted for, and only a little more than 40 Anon3 Recruits. I suspect at least all 150 subjects are present w/Napoleon backs, and that sets of the same exist. They were never acknowledged as being difficult by any of the early collectors, as far as I know, so it goes to figure they're plentiful enough.

As for the different Recruit factory backs, no one seems to give much heed to any pop variations. If I had to guess, I'd say it was somewhere between 2-1 or 3-1 (in general) 240 to 606. That number varies by subject, as some seem more plentiful with factory 606, but the numbers are really skewed by the small sample size, so who really knows. If Tim's original survey included factory back, it might be interesting.

For the BL-class, it goes (hardest first)

Red Cross (hardest by far)
Anon 25
Anon 3
Cycle
Broadleaf (easiest by some bit ... but still, they're all hard)

For what its worth, Tim's Survey #'s for the BL cards had about

Broadleaf 51%
Anon Fac 3 21%
Cycle 20%
Anon Fac 25 8%

Lots of work went into the survey and documentation of the details. For anyone interested in the set, its a must read!

caramelcard wrote:Hi Dan,

In those dozens of sets that belong to old-timers are there any brown text recruit backs? I would guess "yes" since I happen to have two sitting in my set, but maybe I just got really lucky. Did you have one in your set?

I had a few folks email me scans of there brown text back that they found after it was brought to their attention that they existed.


Mike,

The anonymous discolored backs are really tough to classify. Is that fading similar to what we might see on different issues like E98 or even T206 Old Mill SL? I haven't seen one in person so not sure what to think on those. I like em though!

Rob

I'm lucky enough to also have two Brown backs, Rob! (the two above), and expect that more (many?) exist in old-time collections.

Both of those are obvious enough in person, but Bruce B's Cole is even more obviously brown (from scans) than either of those two. Some, however, are so slight that I'm not sure they really are. There's one that's been up and down on eBay (Austin) with a reserve that's not been met, though the bidding has reached almost $200 if I recall... It falls in the latter category in my opinion, and from the scan I'm just not sure.

Until Jay's posts over at the original Network 54 site, I was not aware of that back at all (thanks, Jay!).

As for the other colors on the Anon backs, I think you and I agree that there are definitely color differences, with purple and (near) brown making regular appearances. Until the Kelly, all the ones I'd seen were pretty consistent across the entire card. That one makes me wonder if the anon ones (recruit or otherwise) are simply a liquid-induced fading. I've not really paid close enough attention to say for sure, but I think the off color ones are usually Anon-3, but would expect to be quickly proven wrong on that.
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Mike

sabrjay wrote:I took a lot of flack from people when I first brought to everyone's attention the brown recruit. Lots of people said it was just faded black ink. I think it was 2004 National I brought the card with and showed it to Dave Forman of SGC. He didn't he bat eye when I asked if SGC would slab it as a new back variation and as they say, the rest was history.

Thank you for your persistence, Jay!

When you first posted, it seemed a stretch, but the scans seemed to do it justice. Seeing one in person clinched it for me, absolutely no doubt!

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Mike