Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

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Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by Bosox Blair on Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:18 am

Curt Schilling retired today, after a fantastic career. But will the Hall voters usher him in?

He did not hit the magic win total of 300 - he had 216 (against 146 losses). His ERA was a respectable (in this era) 3.46.

He had 3,116 strikeouts - good for 15th all-time.

But the post-season was where he made his greatest mark. Three World Series championships. An 11-2 record (best of any pitcher with 10+ decisions) and a paltry 2.23 ERA. MVP of the 2001 World Series.

The heroics of breaking the curse in Boston and the bloody sock will live on forever in Beantown (and the sock is already in the Hall...maybe this "Cinderella" will follow his footwear in?)

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Blair
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Re: Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by terjung on Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:09 am

Obviously, this will get much debate over the next 5 years until he is elligible.
I try to avoid the "if so and so got in, then he HAS to get in" type debate since that type of argument breads eventual inclusion of mediocrity. Additionally, there have been several that people would consider mistakes for hall inclusion.

Since Schilling doesn't have the "automatic Cooperstown" level of numbers, it comes down to this for me...
Was Schilling one of the greats of his generation? Did he remain at that level for an extended period of time? Was he one of the main reasons that a team dominated?

I think I would have to go with a yes on all three accounts.

For me, I would vote for inclusion in Cooperstown. I don't think his admission would water down the hall at all.

Brian
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yes...

Post by Square_Frame_Ramly on Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:02 am

he does deserve to get in and will....


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Re: Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by cccc on Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:49 am

not a hof'er, i don't think he was top 5 starting pitchers of his generation...too bad he pitched at the wrong time. when it's borderline, i say leave them out. bert blyleven should get in before schilling/jack morris.

maddux, glavine, pedro, clemens, randy johnson

edit: not surprising all the red sox guys say vote him in yuck
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Re: Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by Bosox Blair on Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:06 am

cccc wrote:not a hof'er, i don't think he was top 5 starting pitchers of his generation...too bad he pitched at the wrong time. when it's borderline, i say leave them out. bert blyleven should get in before schilling/jack morris.

maddux, glavine, pedro, clemens, randy johnson

edit: not surprising all the red sox guys say vote him in yuck

Well there are a few different thoughts going on here - and some conflicting.

I agree that Blyleven should be in.

However...in the same post you suggest that only the top 5 pitchers from a generation deserve to go in. I personally don't think that is any part of the test, but if it is, how can you possibly support Blyleven (who was not even close)?

I can't think of a generation (20 year span) from which only 5 starters went to the Hall.

And of course Blyleven was not Schilling's "generation", as Blyleven pitched 1970-1992 and Schilling from 1988-2007.

Now Morris was from Blyleven's generation and IMO Morris was a considerably better pitcher. I think there is pretty much nobody during that era who would have taken Blyleven ahead of Morris...I mean nobody. Morris won 4 World Series titles with 3 different teams. He carried the Twins on his back to the 1991 Series victory. He was the definition of "ace" starter. He started more consecutive opening day games than any starter in the history of the majors (14 of 'em). He was a 5-time all-star (to Blyleven's 2).

It is an interesting fact that no pitcher with 3000+ strikeouts who was eligible for the Hall was ever denied - Blyleven is the only one in that club still on the outside...and Schilling has the 3000+ too.

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Blair
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Re: Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by cccc on Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:10 am

yea in my mind schilling was the jack morris of his day...middling stats with strong post season presence. i'm saying since blyleven is out, both morris/schilling should also be out.

as for top 5 pitchers etc...since schilling doesn't really have the stats to back up hof credentials, you guys devise up other "intangibles" such as his dominancy during his career and making his teams better etc etc, and i'm just saying he really didn't stick out the last 15-20 years...and i've watched alot of baseball during that span. his stats are similar to other guys like hershiser/saberhagen/kevin brown/bob welch... they each had a time where they were masterful but to say they were dominant for 5-10+ years is stretching it (and welch/hersh won 1 cy while saber won 2).

so no stats, no credentials, no hall. the playoffs is pretty much a crapshoot imo, i don't place much emphasis on small sample size.
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nope

Post by nolemmings on Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:24 am

not enough wins--he's out.
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Guys...

Post by Square_Frame_Ramly on Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:40 am

We can't forget about the Bloody Sock.....that alone should get him in. bananarama 2



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Re: Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by sabrjay on Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:42 pm

Post season numbers may be a small sample, but the voters like those numbers a whole lot more than regular season numbers. Blyleven, Schilling and Morris don't have the wins of Sutton or Niekro, but they are all better pitchers.

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Re: Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by Bosox Blair on Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:44 pm

sabrjay wrote:Post season numbers may be a small sample, but the voters like those numbers a whole lot more than regular season numbers. Blyleven, Schilling and Morris don't have the wins of Sutton or Niekro, but they are all better pitchers.

Jay

This I agree with 100%.


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Re: Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by ItsOnlyGil on Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:54 am

700 walks, 3000 Ks.
Nobody has that ratio.
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Re: Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by nolemmings on Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:38 pm

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let's try again

Post by nolemmings on Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:10 pm

Post season numbers may be a small sample, but the voters like those numbers a whole lot more than regular season numbers. Blyleven, Schilling and Morris don't have the wins of Sutton or Niekro, but they are all better pitchers.

If the voters like post-season numbers much more than regular season stats, why is it Morris and Blyleven are not in the HOF but Niekro and Sutton are?

I just can't get at all behind a guy who wins only 216 games over 20 seasons. He may have played for a few bad teams, but that's the rationale used for Blyelven, and he managed to have 71 (33%) more wins. Niekro pitched on largely mediocre teams too, as did 300 game winners Gaylord Perry and Fergie Jenkins, to name a couple.

And one minor point of clarification. Schilling was co-MVP of the 2001 World Series, along with Randy Johnson. While not necessarily fair to compare them, RJ got the game 7 win (Schilling left the game down a run) pitching the 8th and 9th on less than 24 hours rest. Schilling wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team two of the three years he won 20 games.

I like Schilling enough-- I remember him as a high schooler here in AZ-- and I won't get all bent if he makes it, but I don't think he's HOF material.
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Re: Schilling retires...but does he go to the Hall?

Post by Jim Rivera cfc1909 on Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:37 pm

I'm still ticked that the Os had him and let him go. Schilling/Mussina would have been and sweet 1 2. I'm not really a Schilling fan but I am a Mussina fan. I would rather see Moose in but his win/loss record is probably the only thing he has going for him and is not enough. Schilling may have a shot with 3 titles and 3k ks but still might not be enough.
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