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Green border t205s

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Post by sabrjay Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:32 am

Gil, just for you, here's a lot of green border t205s

green t205s

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Post by t206head Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:44 am

I've got a Chief Bender thats 3/4 green with just a pinch of gold on the bottom why is that?? dose it affect the value ? later BOB
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Post by fisherboy7 Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:54 am

The green border is not a true color variation, just the result of years of wear & tear and exposure to the elements. You will never see a mint T205 card with green borders. So yes, it does affect the value just as a t206 with worn borders would be affected. Doesn't mean one couldn't collect T205's with green borders only though - whatever floats your boat. Very Happy

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Post by sabrjay Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:05 am

As Ben pointed out, almost all green border t205s are in very rough shape. I've always suspected that these were printers scrap that never got the gold applied.

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Post by cmoking Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:20 am

sabrjay wrote:I've always suspected that these were printers scrap that never got the gold applied.

fisherboy7 wrote:The green border is not a true color variation, just the result of years of wear & tear and exposure to the elements.


I see a contradiction. What's the real scoop?

I think the ebay seller got these cards from last year's REA.
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2007/387.html

From the description, REA thinks they are possibly printer's scraps.

"7) 1911 T205 Gold Border (67 cards): All grade Poor including ..[].. Almost all of these T205 cards appear to have green borders, as opposed to gold borders. At first we thought they were just so rough that the color of the borders had somehow "worn" them to be an unusual color, but close inspection leads us to believe that these cards may have never had the gold borders applied, and that the green color on the borders of these cards is simply the natural border color before the application of gold. Many of these cards appear to be hand-cut (though this is not immediately obvious because they are in such low grade) supporting the theory that these cards are printer's scraps, or were long ago handcut from a sheet which did not yet have the gold applied to the borders. These may be the "sleeper" of the lot for some collectors."

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Post by fisherboy7 Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:43 am

I don't buy the printer's scrap theory. I attempted to put a low/mid-grade t205 set together in 2001 (got about half way including all the HOFers) and had plenty of cards that showed partial "greening" of the borders. They had begun to deteriorate due to exposure but never got all the way to green. Take t206head's Bender example above, a 3/4 green bordered card with a little gold at the bottom. Same story there - partial deterioration.

I think the green is likely the result of a chemical reaction that occurs when the gold-like substance (actually copper) of the original border is exposed to direct sunlight over time.

On the other hand, a printers scrap card will typically show unusual characteristics such as ghost images, double/triple/quadruple struck back prints, blank backs, upside down backs, and severe miscuts.

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Post by ItsOnlyGil Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:20 am

I thought that the base color to which the metal is applied on a t205 border, is yellow.
If so, more than wear is involved in yielding a green border.
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Post by jmk59 Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:39 am

But if it's natural wear and tear, doesn't it seem odd that these all have the border worn off pretty much 100%? Natural wear and tear if more likely to take of some gold in some places. But here all the gold is off of all the cards. It looks like every card is cleaned right off.

Also, even though they are in rough shape these do not seem to have much going on by way of surface wear. If there was enough wear and tear to remove all of the gold border, how did it not seem to extend at all into the photo area? Look at Sweeney as an example of how wierd it would be to have the gold so cleanly removed but the picture unaffected (by surface wear - creases are different).

I can see chemical reaction as a better candidate because it might produce a more even result than wear and tear, but here I don't see any sign of fading of the other colors. If there was enough prolonged exposure to sunlight to take off the borders, you might also think it would fade parts of the main pictures.

I'm thinking that this particular batch never had gold on it. It just seems like it is too cleanly missing to have worn off somehow. Does anyone know anything about T205 sheets - like were these all on the same printing sheet or something?

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Post by arandy Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:11 pm

From what I know, these borders are made from a copper mixture. Over time, copper turns green because of rust. (Statue of Liberty)
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Post by ItsOnlyGil Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:33 pm

Correct, the gold color border is not removed to get a green bordered card, the copper has simply reacted with the environment to produce a green colored compound on the border surface. If the gold colored metal (probably copper, or in that family: brass, bronze, etc.) had been completely removed, the borders would be yellow, as they started.

The problem with seeking these cards as a collectible is that this effect can be artificially produced. And I believe that such "doctoring" would be undetectable since it is a chemical reaction.
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Post by sabrjay Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:20 pm

I was always told by old timers in the hobby that there was actual gold flake in the borders. I don't buy the wear or oxidation theories. If these were true, then you would see spots of wear or patches of green. Every green border card I've ever seen has a completely green border. Until someone can produce these transistional cards in the wear/oxidation process, I won't be giving them much credence.

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Post by phlflyer1 Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:40 pm

sabrjay wrote:Until someone can produce these transistional cards in the wear/oxidation process, I won't be giving them much credence.
Jay

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If you look closely, you can see spots of the remnants of the gold border on the lower sides and bottom border where the card is mostly green.

Whether this is a coating that has flaked off or has oxidized, I do not know but you can definitely see some remnants of the gold border where parts of the green are.

Green border t205s T205_h10

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Post by sabrjay Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:42 pm

cool stuff. Always good to learn new things Smile

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Post by ItsOnlyGil Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:50 pm

If the green coloration is due to oxidation, reaction with sulfur oxides in the atmosphere or other metallic degredation, it should look pitted under magnification, I would think. Much like verdigris on outside statues or ship related hardware.
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Post by cmoking Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:59 am

Scott, thanks for the scan!

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Post by arandy Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:00 pm

I can not see the above responses scratch , but I think the borders are of a bronze mixture. Broze is a mixture of tin and copper. It gives off a goldish color. The copper in this mixture reacts more than the tin giving the borders a green rustic color.


Profesor Arandy,
AP Chemistry
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Post by onlychild Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:22 pm

I’ve dissected a few of these, would like to get my hands on a green border to tear into or at least inspect. I think I spend more on destructive card experiments that I do on my collection. puke



Here is what happened to the last one.



Green border t205s T205.5
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Post by CobbSpikedMe Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:44 am

If it were oxidation of the copper, wouldn't we see more green borders than the original gold?

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Post by t206head Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:52 am

All right i hate to type but this may help,I am the manager of a large art casting foundry in NY we work mostly in bronze . now if it is true that it is real gold it can't turn green. However bronze will turn green fairly easy, but there needs to be a high concentration of the copper in the bronze and just the right amount of moisture,salts or acids. I just don't think that there was ever that much "bronze" dust on a t205 for such a reaction . One other thing, if it a form of patination than i feel it would start to bleed in to the paper and the backs show no sign of this. So I am one more for no on oxidation!! PS i hate my Job later BOB
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Post by arandy Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:46 pm

I know for a fact that this is not because of chipping. The borders are
yellow before the "gold" is applied. Not green.Another theroy is that
the green stuff is an adhesive layer that is applied to make the "gold"
stick to the card.
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Post by ItsOnlyGil Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:32 pm

You could check that out (if I understand this properly) by power erasing a gold border area and observe the disappearance of the gold - revealing the green glue surface. Then the disappearance of the glue layer, revealing the yellow base color.

If this is the explanation, then copper/alloys may not be the metallic coating, and gold may be.
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Post by arandy Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:23 pm

I wish I could but I don't want to have to destroy a 100 year old card of my personal colection pale . If anyone has a card with different layers revealed, please show me. If this is not the reason for the green, I'm puzzled. scratch
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Post by TheRiddler Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:39 pm

Just the green border t205s have been stripped out of the earlier REA lot which included various cards, and are currently at $400. in their current auction.
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=13256
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Post by onlychild Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:35 am

Not sure what this proves, if anything at all. Some time ago I was wondering if just the gold border could be removed without affecting the picture. Although I did a rush job, again to see what would happen, I was able to remove just the gold glittery edges on half of this card without doing much harm to the rest. Just so happens that underneath, the border color was white. Had it been yellow or green and I took my time, I imagine a plain border could be achieved by doctoring. Green ink from this time period is always tough to remove and is often the last to go.

I swear I destroy more cards.....


Green border t205s T205_m10


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Post by TheBig6 Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:19 am

T205's with a patina, now thats cool.
New Grade
SGC40 with 30% Patina.
J/K of course.
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