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Lipset at it again

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Post by sabrjay Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:53 pm

It's really sad when a long time and knowledgeable collector/dealer like Lew Lipset continues to hype the t205 Matty with a Cycle back as rare when it has been known about since I started collecting back in 1981. No cared about it until he started hyping it as rare.

I don't understand that mindless following behind this card. The Cycle back isn't a common one seen, but it isn't among the toughest backs either and when t205s with Cycle backs show up on eBay, they almost never sell for a premium.

If you are claiming to be collecting a master set of front and back combos, then should the different tobacco brands constitute a back variation too for master set purposes?

Jay

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Post by lentel Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:20 am

Jay would this mean a complete set of each piedmonts, sweet caporal, cycles etc if those back brands are printed of every player?
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Post by bowlingshoeguy Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:01 am

Kyle,

I believe that is exactly what he is impying. The Matty Cycle back is just that until a corrected version is found. The 37-1/ Cycle variation is no different thatn a matty AB or Broadleaf back but some people think that because of a typo it makes it a part of the set.

Lee
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Post by sabrjay Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:47 pm

Kyle, that's exactly what I mean. Same goes for any of the back variations that exist only on one back. t206 fans will mention the Demmitt and O'Hara cards that are found only on Polar Bear backs, but those cards are not typos. That was deliberate change to note players moving to new teams. Those cards are also red herrings in that the changes to those cards were made on the front, not the back of the cards. Changing the team on the front is the same as changing the team on the front of the t205 Graham and Shean cards.

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Post by mwieder Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:05 pm

Jay - we've discussed this elsewhere, but it's similar to the T205 Wilhelm variation (a type that exists only in certain back combinations). Your coutner was that it only counts as a variation if it exists with multiple backs like the Wilhelm (not sure why that should be) and the counter-point to that is the Demitt and O'Hara. I think calling Lou out here is wrong - this is a legit variation recognized by the SCD, PSA and SGC. You're certainly free to disagree, but he seems to have established hobby precedent, as well as the major hobby organizations on his side.

Disclaimer: I own one of these.

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Post by sabrjay Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:15 pm

I probably wouldn't have had a problem with being called a variation if it was so when I got into the hobby in 1980. As early as 1982 I knew about the variation as did other dealers and collectors. No one cared because it was found on only one back. It wasn't until Lew, who given his hobby knowledge probably knew long ago about this variation, decided to hype it just recently. People bought into it.

Then again, I can't really complain since I'm the person that single handedly got e90-3 Hofman variation recognized by SCD and slabbers when many collectors didn't think it was a legit variation. At least I vindicated when another example appeared.

I think the reason I don't like the Matty variation is that I like collecting master sets and know I have to pay a huge premium for the card when you never had to before.

Jay


Last edited by sabrjay on Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by mwieder Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:39 pm

Jay - your candor is much appreciated. Most folks aren't as truthful about the reasons underlying their arguments and you should be congratulated for that.

I certainly understand your pain in needing to add another card to what was previously though to be a complete set. This is a very tough variation - especially when you compare it to the number of total Matty's graded - being a HOFer, Matty's get graded anyway (as opposed to, say, Wilhelm) and yet the pop is still lower then the Wilhelm "suffered."

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Post by sabrjay Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:03 pm

The pop report has always mystified me.I've never thought of the Cycle Matty or any Cycle back as being especially tough. I remember before the price boom that my brother had 2 or 3 of them at one time. I think a lot of the Matty Cycle backs are now being held on to and won't get graded until they decide to sell.

Jay

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Post by bowlingshoeguy Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:08 pm

I believe Josh Levine said he has been able to track 11 of them. If Josh is reading can you verify.

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Post by mwieder Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:22 pm

It's easily explained - until recently, this wasn't a known/recorded variation, and as such, carried no special significance and value so it would come up for sale and change hands frequently; no different then any other Cycle backed T205. However, now that it has been identified, I anticipate it to become very tough to find available, once the initial wave of a few people "cashing out" comes to an end.

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Post by cccc Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:42 pm

there's always alot of politiking when it comes to these little variations and print anomalies...people pushing their own agendas for whatever reason: money, registry points, etc. i usually side with the opinions of the older collectors who have hobby experience...if tbob and other long time t205 collectors are laughing at the stoopid prices being paid for these t205 mattys, then i'm gonna let the initial hype die down and evaluate. besides 5-6k buys you many many other nicer cards than a t205 matty.

edit: yea if i had that t205 matty it would've been consigned for the masses...strike while the iron's hot. i'll prolly look stupid (eh Rolling Eyes ) but imo the card can only decrease in value.
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Post by bowlingshoeguy Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:09 am

Definitely a good time to sell. I just sold mine about a year or 2 too early to make the huge bucks but I more than doubled what I had into each of the Mattys. So I make out all right.

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Post by bowlingshoeguy Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:05 pm

I finally got around to reading his auction description for this card. I can not believe that he out right lies in his listing. I along with a couple of others emailed him when he auctioned off the one last year. Obviously if the facts don't bode well for your sale than just use the information you have and put it up for unsuspecting buyers.

He states that he does not know of any other of these have been offered since he listed the frist one with the outrageous information. Well I know this is at least the 5th one in a year and I know that know of them are 2 of the 3 I used to own.

It is really frustrating when a well known hobbyist has to resort to this when he has other facts available to him.

At least Rob mention in his description that it is a Cycle only variation.

Lee
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Post by jmk59 Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:53 pm

I agree with Quan. Those with long histories in the hobby can give good context and background when people try to recharacterize cards as somehow rare or unique. I only go back maybe 12 years in the hobby, and that's not long enough to be sinking cash into newly-declared variations when the "old guard" and expert hobbyists are laughing at them (good way to put it). Maybe the perceptions of rarity and desirability hold on, maybe they don't. I just know I am not comfortable betting on it when very knowledgeable people are rolling their eyes and sitting it out. When it comes to my checkbook, that consideration weighs at least as heavily as the inevitable technical arguments.

I think that Hofnlan was a bit different in that there wasn't a long history of people knowing this card was around. It sort of came out of nowhere, so there was no long, well-developed background as to the place it had in the hobby. Whether it was a variation or not was totally up for grabs. At first I thought it was, then that it wasn't, then maybe that it was. I know I about died when I found out that the second one I saw wasn't Jay's original.

Joann
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