Negro Leagues

I just got a download for all-time greats from the Negro Leagues. We can add these players to the next edition of our ATG fantasy league/draft

Jay

This is great !
An excuse to read more about my hobby.
And compare what I learned will my fellow students/collectors in a game.

Are MLB players excluded from competition in this section? For example: Larry Doby had a NeL average around .370, Monty Irvin also had a strong record. But both (and others) did get MLB experience.

I just downloaded the data and haven't really had time to take a look at it. I'll post more when I look at it. Hopefully before this weekend

Jay

Here is a list of players and their main position. My guess is that if they are listed as UT or OF, they probably aren't going to make the cut in any of our drafts.

Newt Allen 2B
Ramon Arano SP
Sam Bankhead UT
John Beckwith 3B
Cool Papa Bell CF
William Bell SP
Jerry Benjamin CF
Ramon Bragana SP
Chet Brewer SP
Barney Brown SP
Iron Man Brown C
Ray Brown SP
Willard Brown CF
Luis Bustamente SS
Bill Byrd SP
Tank Carr 1B
Perucho Cepeda SS
Pelayo Chacon SS
Oscar Charleston CF
Phil Cockrell SP
Pancho Coimbre OF
Andy Cooper SP
Sam Crawford SP
Jimmie Crutchfield CF
Ray Dandridge 3B
Roosevelt Davis SP
Leon Day 2B
Bingo DeMoss 2B
Martin Dihigo 2B
Dizzy Dismukes SP
Rap Dixon RF
John Donaldson SP
Plunk Davis SP
Valentin Dreke CF
Tommy Dukes C
Frank Duncan C
Jose Fernandez C
Red Fields SP
Rube Foster SP
Willie Foster SP
Billy Francis 3B
Cocaina Garcia SP
Silvio Garcia SS
Jelly Gardner RF
Josh Gibson C
George Giles 1B
Frank Grant 2B
Pig Greene C
Vic Harris LF
Johnny Hayes C
Slap Hensley SP
Pete Hill CF
Bill Holland SP
Crush Holloway RF
Sammy Hughes 2B
Jelly Jackson SS
Fats Jenkins OF
Sam Jethroe CF
Chappie Johnson C
Heavy Johnson LF
Home Run Johnson 2B
Judy Johnson 3B
Reuben Jones LF
Slim Jones SP
Henry Kimbro CF
Lefty LaMarque SP
Buck Leonard 1B
Pop Lloyd SS
Dick Lundy SS
Jimmie Lyons LF
Biz Mackey C
Dave Malarcher 3B
Max Manning SP
Ghost Marcelle 3B
Leroy Matlock SP
Booker McDaniel SP
Webster McDonald SP
Terris McDuffie OF
Jose Mendez SP
Pablo Mesa LF
Streak Milton OF
Bill Monoroe 2B
Dobie Moore SS
Mike Moore OF
Dink Mothel 2B
Jose Munoz SP
Buck O'Neill 1B
Alejandro Oms CF
Satchel Paige SP
Roy Paltrow SP
Alonzo Perry 1B
Bill Pettus 1B
Buddy Petway C
Spot Poles CF
Alec Radcliff 3B
Double Duty Radcliffe C
Connie Rector SP
Cannonball Redding SP
Frog Redus LF
Bullet Joe Rogan SP
Leon Ruffin C
Lazaro Salazar OF
Beans Salmon SP
Louis Santop C
George Scales 2B
Dick Seay 2B
Chino Smith CF
Hilton Smith SP
Neck Stanley SP
Turkey Stearnes CF
Country Jake Stephens SS
Ed Stone RF
George Stovey SP
Sam Streeter SP
Mule Suttles 1B
Ben Taylor 1B
Luis Tiant Sr SP
Cristobal Torriente OF
Big Florida Trent SP
Quincy Trouppe C
Tetelo Vargas CF
Big Walker SP
Willie Wells SS
Edgar Wesley 1B
Chaney White CF
Sol White 2B
Chester Williams SS
Nish Williams C
Smokey Joe Williams SP
Jud Wilson 3B
Nip Winters SP
Wild Bill Wright CF

.


Top three Catchers:

1. Josh Gibson (BR) Average defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 510 AB 1855 H 666 D 109 T 41 HR 115 BB 255 SB 22 BA .359
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
28-66, .424 BA, 5 HR against Major League competition

2. Raleigh “Biz” Mackey (BB) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 863 AB 3120 H 1028 D 143 T 51 HR 59 BB 270 SB 62 BA .329
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
26-74, .354 BA, against Major League competition

3. Louis Santop (BL) Average defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 190 AB 584 H 189 D 29 T 6 HR 13 BB 42 SB 13 BA .324

Top three 1st basemen

1. Walter “Buck” Leonard (BL) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 412 AB 1472 H 471 D 73 T 26 HR 60 BB 257 SB 25 BA .320
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
10-24, .417 BA, against Major League competition

2. George “Mule” Suttles (BR) Poor defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 762 AB 2727 H 893 D 167 T 50 HR 133 BB 257 SB 45 BA .327
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
58-170, 5 HR, .341 BA, against Major League competition

3. Ben Taylor (BL) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 467 AB 1695 H 545 D 83 T 29 HR 21 BB 173 SB 24 BA .322
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
16-50, .320 BA, against Major League competition

Top three 2nd basemen

1. Sammy T. Hughes (BR) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 316 AB 1184 H 357 D 65 T 20 HR 16 BB 108 SB 17 BA .302
According to Negro League Historian James Riley:
.353 BA, against Major League competition

2. George “Tubby” Scales (BR) Average defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 666 AB 2215 H 710 D 154 T 32 HR 66 BB 303 SB 54 BA .321

3. Newton “Newt” Allen (BB) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 914 AB 3538 H 1017 D 160 T 47 HR 18 BB 312 SB 126 BA .287
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
13-29, .448 BA, against Major League competition

Top three Shortstops:

1. John Henry “Pop” Lloyd (BL) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 444 AB 1692 H 580 D 86 T 19 HR 19 BB 140 SB 58 BA .343
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
34-106, .321 BA, against Major League competition

2. Willie “Devil” Wells (BR) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 756 AB 2879 H 918 D 171 T 43 HR 98 BB 347 SB 98 BA .319
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
41-116, .353 BA, against Major League competition

3. Walter “Dobie” Moore (BR) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 438 AB 1767 H 611 D 108 T 49 HR 32 BB 109 SB 55 BA .346
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
12-38, .315 BA, against Major League competition

Top three 3rd basemen:

1. Ray “Hook” Dandridge (BR) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 186 AB 710 H 224 D 29 T 11 HR 3 BB 38 SB 15 BA .315
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
16-49, .347 BA, against Major League competition

2. Ernest Judson “Jud” Wilson (BL) Average defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 850 AB 2954 H 1038 D 182 T 33 HR 71 BB 354 SB 92 BA .351
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
39-132, 6 HR, .295 BA, against Major League competition

3. Oliver “Ghost” Marcelle (BR) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 443 AB 1674 H 491 D 48 T 18 HR 9 BB 163 SB 43 BA .293
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
11-36, .306 BA, against Major League competition

Top three Center Fielders:

1. Oscar Charleston (BL) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 814 AB 3027 H 1054 D 185 T 61 HR 128 BB 408 SB 182 BA .348
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
66-200, .333 BA, against Major League competition

2. Norman “Turkey” Stearnes (BL) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 917 AB 3514 H 1211 D 203 T 105 HR 183 BB 388 SB 129 BA .345
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
37-98, .378 BA, against Major League competition

3. Cristobol Torriente (BL) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 581 AB 2040 H 691 D 132 T 47 HR 46 BB 283 SB 80 BA .339
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
48-110, .436 BA, against Major League competition

Top three Left Fielders:

1. James “Cool Papa” Bell (BB) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 865 AB 3444 H 1092 D 158 T 53 HR 36 BB 339 SB 144 BA .317
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
52-152, .342 BA, against Major League competition

2. Willard “Home Run” Brown (BR) Average defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 475 AB 1806 H 634 D 111 T 47 HR 67 BB 109 SB 83 BA .351
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
12-67, 1 HR, .179 BA, against Major League competition

3. Alejandro Oms (BL) Excellent defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 275 AB 1042 H 331 D 60 T 11 HR 31 BB 119 SB 20 BA .318
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
48-110, .436 BA, against Major League competition

Top three Right Fielders:

1. Charles “Chino” Smith (BL) Excellent defense.
According to Negro League Historian John Holway, AB 902 BA .420.
According to James A. Riley, Smith hit for a lifetime average of .423 in regular-season play, and
Hit an identical average in exhibitions against major-leaguers.

2. Herbert “Rap” Dixon (BR) Average defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 478 AB 1790 H 564 D 90 T 37 HR 51 BB 199 SB 84 BA .315
According to Negro League Historian to James A. Riley
Rap hit .362 average in exhibitions against major leaguers.


3. Oscar “Heavy” Johnson (BR) Poor defense.
According to Negro League Historian John Holway, AB 1728 BA .365, 51 HR. He was 8-16 vs.
major-league pitching, with 2 home runs. According to James A. Riley, Johnson played twelve years in
the Negro Leagues, compiling a lifetime .337 batting average.

Honorable Mention hitters:

Ulysses “Frank” Grant (BR) 2B, excellent defense.
This is from the appendix of Sol White's History of Colored Base Ball.
G 458 AB 1879 H 634 D 123 T 34 HR 31 SB 149 SB .337 BA

John Beckwith (BR) SS, poor defense. Stats according to HOF study.
G 452 AB 1647 H 575 D 103 T 29 HR 77 BB 148 SB 34 BA .349
According to Negro League Historian John Holway
19-60, .319 BA, against Major League competition

Top eight Pitchers:

1. Leroy “Satchel” Paige (RHP) Stats according to HOF study.
G 263 W 103 L 61 IP 1506.7 ER 338 K 1231 BB 253 WP 17 HB 15 SV 11 ERA 2.02
MLB record: W 28 L 31 G 179 CG 7 IP 476 H 429 ER 174 BB 183 K 290 ERA 3.29

2. Joe “Smokey Joe” Williams (RHP) Stats according to HOF study.
G 84 W 30 L 33 IP 565.7 ER 208 K 266 BB 70 WP 3 HB 3 SV 2 ERA 3.31
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
10 wins 4 losses vs. major-league competition, and 106 wins 51 losses in Negro League play.

3. William Hendrick “Willie” Foster (LHP) Stats according to HOF study.
G 291 W 143 L 69 IP 1859.7 ER 495 K 1013 BB 516 WP 16 HB 36 SV 17 ERA 2.40
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
4 wins 1 loss vs. major-league competition.

4. Wilbur “Bullet” Rogan (RHP) Stats according to HOF study.
G 209 W 116 L 50 IP 1444.3 ER 416 K 855 BB 361 WP 25 HB 11 SV 14 ERA 2.59
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
2 wins 1 loss vs. major-league competition.

5. Hilton Smith (RHP) Stats according to HOF study.
G 146 W 71 L 31 IP 812.3 ER 152 K 470 BB 96 WP 7 HB 13 SV 5 ERA 1.68
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
6 wins 1 loss vs. major-league competition.

6. Raymond Brown (RHP) Stats according to HOF study.
G 183 W 105 L 44 IP 1284.3 ER 456 K 445 BB 254 WP 5 HB 12 SV 7 ERA 3.20

7. Martin Dihigo (RHP, C, 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, OF). Stats according to HOF study.
Pitcher stats: G 55 W 26 L 19 IP 354 ER 115 K 176 BB 80 WP 2 HB 4 SV 2 ERA 2.92
Hitter stats: G 379 AB 1404 H 431 D 61 T 17 HR 64 BB 143 SB 41 BA .307

8. Jose “Black Diamond” Mendez (RHP) Stats according to HOF study.
G 71 W 27 L 12 IP 337.7 ER 132 K 147 BB 59 WP 1 HB 5 SV 7 ERA 3.52
According to Negro League Historian John Holway:
8 wins 7 losses vs. major-league competition.

Can't play this round guys, i will be on vacation for next few weeks and probably have limited access.

Sounds fun, can't wait to see your results.

Mark

We won't be starting this any time soon. I tried combining the databases and ended up losing the ATG MLB database I'm hoping DMB will take pity on me and send me the database otherwise, I will have to purchase it again.

Jay

uh oh. gil deleted his wonder synopsis of the great Negro Leaguers. Think he going to be holding out on the info and hoping it will win him the title this time around

Jay

No Jay, I'm not holding out.
I am thinking that the list is unnecessary, and therefore will only add to the confusion.
This is becauise if we merge the two databases, as we go through the (annually) NA seasons, the 19th Century seasons, and the deadball era, we will not draw upon anyone cited on the list which I provided.
This is because all the players tabulated are from the period following Rube Foster's Negro National League (May 1921).
So, after we complete the required 50 years of baseball, and have the hang of it, then I can reintroduce the "leg up" for any interested.
Or do I have something wrong here?
Gil

The negro Leaguers won't be part of the year by year keeper league. I don't have individual seasonal data for them. They will be used in the All-Time Greats league which has no limit on the number of people/teams that can enter.

Jay

The text file is returned. Sorry for the error.

I do not much like player comparisons like "This NeL player hits and fields just like this other MLB player"
But I know that there are large gaps in the information which I supplied above. And since I can not afford to pay the tariff required by this site to put up with me, it is my job to provide as much needed information as I reasonably can.
So with the understanding that none of this information was generated directly by me (actually, sometimes I was wearing a wire, othertimes I left a tape recorder behind when I left the room, etc.); so therefore I stand behind the validity of none of it. But it was gathered from multiple sources.



Charleston- Early career is Mays with less power, maybe a little more BA, late career is Bill Terry with more power, or just a very much glorified Cecil Cooper

John Beckwith-Not a good fielding 3Bman but a great hitter with awesome power, probably walked quite a bit too. Sounds like Chipper Jones (as a player, not a person).

Pop Lloyd-Hard to find a comparison, probably Wagner with MUCH less power.

Christobal Torriente-Joe DiMaggio or Ken Griffey Jr. Very good power hitter, good BA, good fielder, all around great player.

Ray Dandridge-High BA, great fielder, not much power. Hard to find a 3Bman like that....maybe a glorified Pie Traynor.

Biz Mackey-He's hard to find a comparison for. A good but not great hitter and defensive wizard. Maybe like Ivan Rodriguez without the power and good at handling pitchers (hard to imagine)? Hard to find one.

Josh Gibson - Jimmie Foxx as a hitter, Ernie Lombardi as a defender
Luis Santop - Yogi Berra?
Biz Mackey - Tony Pena

Buck Leonard - Johnny Mize
Buck O'Neil - Mark Grace
Luke Easter - Ted Kluszewski
Mule Suttles - Hank Greenberg

Bill Monroe - Del Pratt
Bingo DeMoss - Billy Herman

Pop Lloyd - Luke Appling with better speed
Willie Wells - Derek Jeter
Dobie Moore - Vern Stephens

John Beckwith - Dick Allen
Jud Wilson - Frank Baker
Ray Dandridge - Pie Traynor
Judy Johnson - Ossie Bluege

Turkey Stearnes - Frank Robinson?
Pete Hill - Zack Wheat

Oscar Charleston - Ken Griffey Jr
Christobal Torriente - Duke Snider
Cool Papa Bell - Lou Brock if Brock could play a good CF

Willard Brown - Jose Canseco
Heavy Johnson - Gavy Craveth

Turkey Stearnes-Probably like Mel Ott's raw numbers (forget about the Polo Grounds power boost), or a light Frank Robinson
Mule Suttles-Greenberg
Buck Leonard-Mize or McCovey
Satch Paige(is there any?)-I would say not. Maybe Grove.
Joe Rogan-Wes Ferrell?
Willie Wells-Barry Larkin

Cool Papa Bell - Carey would probably be the closest ML comp, even more so than Brock because of the glove (Bell wasn't quite as good as Carey in the field, but still they're similar). That's a borderline HOFer So he really could turn out the lights and be in bed before it got dark?

Judy Johnson....he's probably the only one of the NeL HOFers I just can't make a decent case for = Scott Brosius

Buck Leonard - Derrek Lee

Buck O'Neil - Whoever said Mark Grace... that's a great comparsion.

Mule Suttles - Willie McCovey or Mark McGwire...

Bingo DeMoss - "The best 2B in the negro league. Could do everything, Defense, Hitting, Running... Was a teammate to Oscar when they were on the Indianapolis ABC's. It also seems like he knew where to hit, like he had control over the ball. A great leader and became a good manager.”

“Roberto Alomar reminds me of Bingo.”

Martin Dihigo - "The greatest player that could play anywhere from pitcher to all of the positions. A great hitter that could run and who can do more than just hold his own in each position on defense. I would love to have this player on my team. I wouldn't have to worry if one person got injured because Di could replace him and probably do better."

Chino Smith - "Chino Smith was Ty Cobb of the Negro League. The greatest hitter in Negro League." "Died at a very young age of 28, just when he was going into his best seasons of his once promising career. That's too bad because he had the chance to be the greatest negro league player. Better than Pop, better then Oscar. Had all of the skills."

I would say Joe Morgan with awesome AVG along with it...


Pop Lloyd - “Pop Lloyd and Honus Wagner were pretty much the same player. Almost Identical. The only differences were Wagner could play anywhere and do it well, while Lloyd was faster on the field and on the base path (would steal more than Wagner).”

I have to go with Honus too...

Willie Wells- All I have heard from him is his defense... I'm going with Ozzie Smith... Only cuz of defense but I'm sure Wells offense was way better than Oz.

Ray Dandridge - Along with Wells, all I have heard about Dandridge is his defense so I'm going with Brooks Robinson...

Judy Johnson - I'm going with George Kell... a good hitter with less than average power with above average defense.

Turkey Stearnes - I'm gonna go on a limb here and compare Turkey with Ken Griffey, Jr. My great grandpa has talked about Turkey being really good in the outfield and on the basepaths.

Oscar Charleston - "Oscar Charleston was the greatest CF I have ever seen. Of course, if you count Cobb as CF, then Oscar would be 2nd, but I think of Ty as a RF or LF more than a CF. His defense was good, not something like Speaker/ Mays/ Ashburn levels, but probably a notch below. Those three were just amazing, something out of this world. Oscar is definitely in my top 10 best defensive CF, not top 5, but in the top 10. Probably would be better to compare him to like Mantle or someone of that level. Speaker, in my mind, might be the only CF that could be a better hitter than Oscar, but I rank Oscar first only because he had more power than Speaker, but not as much as like Mays or Mantle- Dimaggio would be the best comparsion for power. Hitting for average, only Dimaggio or Speaker could challenge him for that title. Probably average higher than Dimaggio and probably right around where Speaker is. As for stolen bases and baserunning, Oscar was in a class of his own. No one could challenge him there, not even Speaker. He wasn't super fast and probably was just fast, but he was one of the smartest runners in the game though. He knew when to run and jump to a great lead."

I would compare Torriente to Joe DiMaggio

Cool Papa Bell - “The fastest player I have ever seen”

Billy Hamilton comes to mind... Tim Raines, Willie Keeler, Willie Wilson, Max Carey... any of those would be fine with me.


Satch Paige - "Satch, in the MLB, was good, but you only saw his "C" game. Back in the day, when he younger and giving his "A" game, it was a beautiful thing to see and 98% of the people never did see his "A" game." "Pedro might be the only pitcher with 3 very good to great pitches, but Satch had 5 or 6 good to very good pitches to choose from. Most pitchers couldn't even learn 5 pitches if their lives depended on it back in those days." "Also, not a lot of people know about this either, Satch played till he was 67 years old and he was playing in the minors." "Show you what type of player he was and what skills he had."

" Think of Pedro or Koufax at their best then think of Neikro or another knuckleballer or screwballer and combined them. You got yourself a legend, Satchal Paige."

Smokey Joe Williams- My great grandpa talked about how scary he was on the mound... Walter Johnson, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, JR Richard all comes to mind.

DeMoss was much less of a hitter than any of the big 6 or so 2Bmen...I'm thinking maybe more of Bid McPhee....great glove but only good bat.

Grace/O'Neill is dead on.

Lee/Leonard is good for right now....I'm more concerned with the comparison to a player's skillset, not necessarily a player's career. Power/some speed/good defense is pretty much like what I read for Leonard.

Wells/Boudreau might be a good one.

Stearnes a Griffey/Henderson hybrid....Rickey's speed, Griffey's D and power and plate discipline.

Cristobal Torriente

The best comp I can come up with for him is Heinie Manush.

John Donaldson

The best I could come up with here was his contemporary, Hubert (Dutch) Leonard, who did pitch a few more innings than the projection for Donaldson. Even so, I think it's a decent match.

Trouppe's projection is missing four early years in his career when he played for a good independent team in Bismarck, ND, after he'd already shown he could play some in the Negro Leagues. If we had those years, he'd probably have more plate appearances but a lower OPS+. Given the lack of good switch hitting catchers, Ted Simmons seems a rather good match if we keep all that in mind

Oms could play a decent CF while Manush was a corner OF, but otherwise they're a decent match

Dismukes compares well to Eddie Rommel

Phil Cockrell

I compare him to contemporary righty Lee Meadows

Ray Brown

He compares nicely to Ted Lyons

Dave Brown

Solely as a pitcher, this man's career compares to Babe Ruth's

Dobie Moore

Moore had a sudden end to his career due to a domestic incident in which he jumped from a second floor window and broke his leg, and was also shot in the same leg by his angry girlfriend. The combined damage to his leg robbed him of his mobility. The best thing to do is to compare him to a shortened career (make Joe's career only 11 his first years), and Joe Cronin seems the best pick

John Beckwith = Medwick
Oliver Marcelle = Kamm
Oscar "Heavy" Johnson = Piazza
Pancho Coimbre = Lloyd Waner
Perucho Cepeda = Barry Larkin
Ray Dandridge = Red Schoendienst
Nap Winters = Lefty Gomez
Rube Foster = Vic Willis
Willie Foster = Dazzy Vance
Smoky Joe Williams = W.Johnson or Pete Alexander
Jose Mendez = Carl Mays


Bingo DeMoss - George Cutshaw
Tubby Scales - Start with Marty McManus and add 35 walks per 162 games
Jud Wilson - Take Stan Hack and add 21 hits (3 of them homers and one a double) plus 10 walks per 162 games, and you've got him, though Hack was almost certainly a better defender.
Willie Wells - There just aren't many shortstops that durable, so I've got to start with Luke Appling, subtract 9 hits and 16 walks, but turn 3 of the hits he did have into homers, another 3 into triples, and 10 more into doubles per 162 games.