373 - the NL wins record, shared by Matty and ol Pete; is he

out of steam, or does Maddux have a real chance for it? He is at 355 now. 18 to tie.

Interesting, I bet he is aware of the stats. I was not aware he has that many. Boy if he actually could have won 20+ games a year in his dominating years he would definitely be in the running. It would definitely take 2 more years of pitching. I would not put it past him. Maybe he learns the knuckle ball and pitches 5 more years.

Lee

I hate comparing Baseball Gods to Modern Players. Johnson & Mathewson are the greatest Baseball Pitchers of all time and nothing will ever change my mind.



I would take Bob Gibson to win a game over Maddox.

I love records being broken, especially long established ones. But records really do not make one player superior to another.

Recently, well a little recently, the "unbreakable" record of a relatively no-name player:



was surpassed. Ed Cartright had held the record for most RBIs in an inning (7) for over 100 years, and looked certain to continue holding it, until another no-name player had an even better inning:

It's always hard to be objective about who is the best all-time. For old timers, all we have to go on is hearsay and what is in the record books. Actually seeing the players is gives a much better idea who is better among contemporary players. We tend to get misty eyed and nostalgic about days gone by and think players and times back then were better than they really were.

Don't get me wrong, Matty and Johnson are among the best ever, but given the era that Maddux played in, it's really hard to dismiss him as not being equal to those two. When you look at their ERA adjusted for league avg they are almost the with Maddux 132, Matty 135 and Johnson 137. For those mot familiar with this, 100 means you are at league average. These guys were roughly 1/3 better than the league average ERA.

Maddux's win total is staggering considering that most pitchers today only get 30-35 starts a year. Matty and Johnson both won 30+ games. The most starts Maddux had in one season was 37. This means he would have had to get credit for the win for every time head started to match Matty's best win total in a season.

We been lucky enough to watch two of the greatest pitchers ever play in our lifetime, Maddux and Clemens, although many will dismiss Clemens for the same reasons they dismiss the great career Bonds had.

Jay

sabrjay wrote:It's always hard to be objective about who is the best all-time. For old timers, all we have to go on is hearsay and what is in the record books. Actually seeing the players is gives a much better idea who is better among contemporary players. We tend to get misty eyed and nostalgic about days gone by and think players and times back then were better than they really were.

Don't get me wrong, Matty and Johnson are among the best ever, but given the era that Maddux played in, it's really hard to dismiss him as not being equal to those two. When you look at their ERA adjusted for league avg they are almost the with Maddux 132, Matty 135 and Johnson 137. For those mot familiar with this, 100 means you are at league average. These guys were roughly 1/3 better than the league average ERA.

Maddux's win total is staggering considering that most pitchers today only get 30-35 starts a year. Matty and Johnson both won 30+ games. The most starts Maddux had in one season was 37. This means he would have had to get credit for the win for every time head started to match Matty's best win total in a season.

We been lucky enough to watch two of the greatest pitchers ever play in our lifetime, Maddux and Clemens, although many will dismiss Clemens for the same reasons they dismiss the great career Bonds had.

Jay

Jay,

Very well said and I agree 100%.

Maddux's agent says he will announce his retirement on Monday. The end of a great career - thankfully unblemished by the public image problems that bring many of today's stars into disrepute.

Cheers,
Blair

Nolan Ryan should be mentioned when mentioning Modern Pitchers. IMO

Does anybody remember JR Richard at his peak before the stroke, Unhittable Fastball & Slider

Ryan is an outstanding pitcher, but I wouldn't call him among the greatest. When he was on, he literally was unhittable. When he was off, he was among the worst in the league. That is not the hallmark of greatness.

Still, if I could pick only one pitcher to watch, it would be Ryan. He is the only pitcher, that every time he stepped on the mound, you knew there was a chance a no-hitter might be thrown. You really can't say that about anyone else. Not even Koufax.

Jay

Bosox Blair wrote:

sabrjay wrote:It's always hard to be objective about who is the best all-time. For old timers, all we have to go on is hearsay and what is in the record books. Actually seeing the players is gives a much better idea who is better among contemporary players. We tend to get misty eyed and nostalgic about days gone by and think players and times back then were better than they really were.

Don't get me wrong, Matty and Johnson are among the best ever, but given the era that Maddux played in, it's really hard to dismiss him as not being equal to those two. When you look at their ERA adjusted for league avg they are almost the with Maddux 132, Matty 135 and Johnson 137. For those mot familiar with this, 100 means you are at league average. These guys were roughly 1/3 better than the league average ERA.

Maddux's win total is staggering considering that most pitchers today only get 30-35 starts a year. Matty and Johnson both won 30+ games. The most starts Maddux had in one season was 37. This means he would have had to get credit for the win for every time head started to match Matty's best win total in a season.

We been lucky enough to watch two of the greatest pitchers ever play in our lifetime, Maddux and Clemens, although many will dismiss Clemens for the same reasons they dismiss the great career Bonds had.

Jay

Jay,

Very well said and I agree 100%.

Maddux's agent says he will announce his retirement on Monday. The end of a great career - thankfully unblemished by the public image problems that bring many of today's stars into disrepute.

Cheers,
Blair

I want the new guys to equal or surpass the old, when they can. It blends the continuity and validates the past for me. Recently I hoped that Craig Biggio would hang around and venture into the hallowed ground of the 700 Club:

1.	Tris Speaker+*	792	L
2.	Pete Rose#	746	B
3.	Stan Musial+*	725	L
4.	Ty Cobb+*	724	L
5.	Craig Biggio	668	R

In doubles. But that was not to be either. I will be happy with the 355 wins he achieved, and those of Clemens and those of Spahn. It nicely blends and validates the past for me, without comprimizing the achievements of those who Big 6 reveres.