T215 Red Cross Scarcity vs. Other "T" sets

Hey Fellas,
Just curious to see where you place T215's on the scarcity level index vs. other tough "T" brands like T213-1, T214, T216's etc. I really like the Red Cross back design, and I know they're pretty hard to find for sale, but you dont see the others that I mentioned for sale that often either. What do you think?

T215 Red Crosses are pretty tough. I'd rank them as scarcer than T213-1's and T216 Kottons, but not as difficult as the T214 Victory and T215 Pirate sets. I might put them on a similar level as the T216 Virginia Extras or Minos, but that's just a rough guesstimate. I'd be interested in what others think about this.

Like many of these scarce T issues, Red Crosses are very seldomly found in mid to high grade. A few years ago there was a big T215 find in low grade, any they hit the open market in bunches (starting with one of the auction houses, then to ebay). The common flaw on most if not all of them was back damage. And many were badly creased as well. I think before that group came to market, Red Crosses were considered a bit tougher than they are today. But that could just be my own perception.

Check out this thread I started a few years ago on the topic for additional info.

browncow75 wrote:Hey Fellas,
Just curious to see where you place T215's on the scarcity level index vs. other tough "T" brands like T213-1, T214, T216's etc. I really like the Red Cross back design, and I know they're pretty hard to find for sale, but you dont see the others that I mentioned for sale that often either. What do you think?

My order (looking at only T211, T213, T214, T215, T216's) from toughest to easiest.....although even the easiest are tough:

1) T215 Pirate
2) T214 Victory
3) T216 Virginia Extra
4) T215-1
5) T216 MINO
6) T213-1
7) T215-2 (blue script)
8) T216 Kottons
9) T211 Red Sun
10) T213-3
11) T213-2

(this is just my opinion based on my own experiences)

I had a high grade Red Cross that I sold at the beginning of this year to fund my T216s. Here's a scan of it:

T215-1 Red Cross Ford SGC 50




And here are some other's I've owned (but have since sold)

T215-2


T213-1:


T213-3 (Overprint)


T211 Red Sun


T214 Victory Tobacco:




AND the following I currently own:

T216 Kotton Type 1 (glossy front, thick card stock):


T216 Kotton Type 2 (glossy front, thick card stock):


T216 Kotton Type 3 (Thin paper stock comparable to T215-1's Coupon T213-1's)


T216 MINO


T216 Virginia Extra (toughest of all T-brands to find anything higher then an AUTH, or 10(1).....in my opinion). The following is my highest graded....lol!

eric...your list looks pretty good to me...the jump from t211 to t213-3 is astronomical in difficulty I'd say. The t213-2,3 are relatively common compared to everything else on the list!

For the most part I agree with your list Eric, and I also agree with what Pete added. I might put that order into three distinct tiers, to show the significant gaps in difficulty between several groupings of sets. Something like:

1) T215 Pirate
2) T214 Victory
----------------------------(gap)
3) T216 Virginia Extra
4) T215-1
5) T216 MINO
6) T213-1
7) T215-2 (blue script)
8) T216 Kottons
9) T211 Red Sun
---------------------------(gap)
10) T213-3
11) T213-2

I'd also put both t215 types side by side in the ranking, with the blue print being slightly easier...one step above t213-1.

ullmandds wrote:eric...your list looks pretty good to me...the jump from t211 to t213-3 is astronomical in difficulty I'd say. The t213-2,3 are relatively common compared to everything else on the list!

Absolutely....a fantastic point Pete!

And Ben, I agree with the breakup of the tiers as you have them, and possibly putting the T215's side by side.

Wow, good info there guys. I never really took condition into consideration as a factor in scarcity, but now that you mention it, I can see your point. Is there a known reason for the difficulty in finding higher grade examples of T215's and T216 VE's? I would imagine thin paper stock is probably a big reason why some cards are so condition sensitive.

The t215-1s are regular t206 card stock. I think the type 2s are thin stock and may be why they're harder to find in nice condition.

Do type 1s really get a premium over the type 2s? If so, how much?

browncow75 wrote:Wow, good info there guys. I never really took condition into consideration as a factor in scarcity, but now that you mention it, I can see your point. Is there a known reason for the difficulty in finding higher grade examples of T215's and T216 VE's? I would imagine thin paper stock is probably a big reason why some cards are so condition sensitive.

Thin card stock is a major reason. The thin stock didn't have the protection of other issues (in my opinion), then say a glossy front and thicker card stock issue (example: T216 type 1's and 2's). Couple this with the humid and very hot temperatures of the Louisiana bayou, plus insects, vermin, and the occasional tropical storm/hurricane, and you have a recipe for disaster. And being that issues like the T216's, T214's, and T213's were only regionally distributed in the Louisiana area, and you won't get a lot of survivors in great condition.

And the rumor that I've heard with VE's (or most of them) is that they washed ashore after a hurricane. All were affixed to an album. That's why 99% of the one's you will see have back damage, and look like they've gone through a wringer.

And then there is this one....which is confirmed as not being from an album. It was found in a mason jar in Louisiana with many other T216 Kottons and MINO's (offered in the last SCP auction), but it too is in horrendous shape. Possibly the thin card stock is so fragile that even stored away the paper broke down in the humid conditions. Who knows, but it sure is interesting.

Here's the only VE I owned

Do 3PG's take certain issues' conditional scarcity into account when they grade them, or is it pretty much standard across the board? Ive seen T216's and the like that have a spot or 2 of paperloss on the back, and they recieved a 2, whereas the same condition in a T206 would only get a 1 or 1.5

They grade regardless of what the normally found condition is. It good that they do that. Otherwise you'd end up with that 50 being called Mint and and I don't think anyone wants to see that.

Jay

I think we can probably agree that T216 Virginia Extra is the most condition sensitive set EVER! They are always mangled and beat as hell. I've never even seen one in VG. I too have heard the hurricane explanation - like Eric said, that along with the flooding and generally harsh weather conditions of the bayou is likely the reason behind the condition you usually find the Louisiana issues in.

E107 is up there too as far as sets normally found in low grade, but not quite at the level of the VE's.

The thin stock seems to be very susceptible to the climate but the thicker stock not so much as evidenced by the Coupons and t207s. They have held up pretty well.

Jay

sabrjay wrote:The thin stock seems to be very susceptible to the climate but the thicker stock not so much as evidenced by the Coupons and t207s. They have held up pretty well.

Jay

Coupons for the most part. But Type 1's are thinner then type 2's and 3's, and those (T213-1) are rarely found in higher grades. I think the highest graded by either PSA or SGC is a 4, and the pop is only 1. Type 2 and 3 Coupons are thicker card stock and also have that glossy finish that T216 type 1's and 2's have.

Agreed Jay, aside from the climate factors, the thin stock is another major reason behind the condition of the VE's.

Eric, what's the highest grade T216 Virginia Extra you've seen?

fisherboy7 wrote:Eric, what's the highest grade T216 Virginia Extra you've seen?

SGC 20. It's a Jennings and is graded an SGC 20. It was auctioned off about 2 years ago in Mastro/Legendary. But I've never seen anything higher then a 20.

fisherboy7 wrote:For the most part I agree with your list Eric, and I also agree with what Pete added. I might put that order into three distinct tiers, to show the significant gaps in difficulty between several groupings of sets. Something like:

1) T215 Pirate
2) T214 Victory
----------------------------(gap)
3) T216 Virginia Extra
4) T215-1
5) T216 MINO
6) T213-1
7) T215-2 (blue script)
8) T216 Kottons
9) T211 Red Sun
---------------------------(gap)
10) T213-3
11) T213-2

I'd also put both t215 types side by side in the ranking, with the blue print being slightly easier...one step above t213-1.

Good breakdown, although I am surprised that everyone thinks that type 3 coupons are so easy. I believe that the vast majority of them came from a single find maybe 10-15 years ago, and not too many have surfaced since then.

Kottons can be broken down as well into thin and thick categories. The thick versions are about right at 8, but the thin versions should be put a bit higher.

The fact that there is a huge find of any rare card means that it will change how rare the card is. Look at t206 uzit and drum backs. With several large uzit finds there is pretty much no doubt that drum is rarer than uzit now. The same for t205 drum and hindu can be said. The recent small of finds of hindu have tilted the most rare back in favor of Drum.

Jay

i have a t213-1 graded sgc 50...which I believe is the highest graded.[img][/img]

Great Coupons Pete! SGC should put type 1-2-3 on the grading label for quick ID.

My little sob story: about 7 years ago I picked up a T213-1 Cobb in f/g condition for $350ish. Looked pretty good with a clean back and a few creases. At that time, the rarity of the type 1's wasn't nearly as renowned as it is today. Maybe a year or so later I sold the Cobb for not much more than I paid. Everyone has their regrets and that's one of mine!

thanks ben...damn...that'd be a real nice card to have today! is right!

So based on our discussions so far is this the general consensus?

1) T215 Pirate
2) T214 Victory
----------------------------(gap)
3) T216 Virginia Extra
4) T216 MINO
5) T215-1
6) T215-2 (blue script)
7) T213-1
8) T216 Kottons
9) T211 Red Sun
---------------------------(gap)
10) T213-3
---------------------------(gap)
11) T213-2

rman444 wrote:

Good breakdown, although I am surprised that everyone thinks that type 3 coupons are so easy. I believe that the vast majority of them came from a single find maybe 10-15 years ago, and not too many have surfaced since then.

Thanks for your input and posting some more scans Richard! As far as your comment, I don't think that coupons are easy by any means.....especially type 3's. But when you compare #10 and #11 to all the other T-cards discussed in the list, there is definitely a gap. Maybe it would be appropriate to put another gap between T213-3's and T213-2's?