1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards

by fisherboy7 Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:05 am

When I first saw this ebay auction I nearly jumped out of my seat - I thought I was looking at a group of 6 extremely scarce Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards. I was nearly fooled. But after some quick investigating, I realized they were just trimmed v100 Willards Chocolates cards, not really scarce at all and basically worthless having been trimmed to the border like that.

Without the borders they are so similar looking to the Schapira rarities. Seems like the major difference is the V100's have more range in their sepia tones while the Schapiras have a more dull and muted look to them. Another clue: the Schapiras have the line "Underwood and Underwood" in small writing at bottom. Nonetheless, with nearly identical cursive player names and a similar "look & feel" (not to mention the sets were manufactured only a year apart), they are pretty darn close.

Does anyone have a real deal Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards in their their collection that they can share with the forum?

Here are scans of the trimmed v100 lot, together with the real deal Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards below them.

Trimmed V100's:
1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards 6882_1

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards 6882_1

Schapira Bros cards:
1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards 03

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards 11

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards 18

by sabrjay Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:29 pm

I didn't even read the post at first. I just scrolled a bit to look at the cards and my first thought was they were v100 Willards. I've never seen Schipira's so I that's probably why this was my first thought. When I scrolled down further to the enxt set of scans, I thought they looked odd of v100s. After reading the post, it all made sense. I never knew the 2 sets were so similar.

Jay

by fisherboy7 Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:45 pm

Here's a larger scan of a Schapira Cobb. Note the white text used for his name on this one. Not the prettiest cards in the world, are they....

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards Bigshowcobb

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards Bigshowcobb

It was found on ebay by Frank Ward in 1999. Here's an excerpt about the card from his Q&A on Cycleback.com:

This card was listed on eBay in late 1999 in the pre1950 Category, by a collector who didnt know what it was. I actually had a tough time locating info on the card at first. It took a couple days of thumbing through catalogs before I came across the listing in the 2000 SCD Catalog for the Schapira cards. The checklist was incomplete, and had no Ty Cobb listed, but the design, size, caption, etc. all matched, so I was sure it was from same series. It has the credit line "Underwood and Underwood" in small writing at bottom, and the name Ty Cobb in white, all consistent with the other known cards from this rare series. I was the high bidder on auction, but the reserve wasnt met. I later found out the seller put a high reserve to be safe, since he didnt know exactly what the cards value was. Well, about a month later the same seller put 2 Novelty Cutlery postcards on eBay, and I happened to win one of them, he remembered my eBay ID, and offered the Cobb card to me for $300 plus the $80 I needed to pay for the postcard I just won. I took him up on offer, and was happy to find a card of Cobb, not cataloged yet. Lemke has the Cobb in the 2001 SCD at $2000 NRMT, which I think is fair. I have since found a Schapira Ray Schalk card that is also now uncataloged.

http://cycleback.com/onlinerarities.htm

by mzm55 Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:00 pm

Those defiantly appear to be trimmed down V100s; however, there could be more to the story. I’ve been following these "trimmed" V100s for over a year and have seen literally over a 100 different examples; I even own two of the same player with the same “trim” from completely different sources.

My theory is that these cards are not V100s but a completely different issue that was released and issued with no side borders. If these were legitimate V100s, why were kids so inclined to cut up their cards? One theory I had was that maybe the side of the candy box had a card on it and kids cut it out. However, when you see these “trimmed” V100s, none are really oddly cut or hacked like similar issues (Orange Borders, W555, etc.). Also, the card’s paper stock isn’t substantial enough. These cards are like rice paper when compared to those mentioned above.Of the cards I own, none are “hacked” and measure up to each other perfectly.

Please look at my Harris and Faber; both share (with the eBay cards) the odd numbers written/stamped on the cards front. I find it extremely rare, though, that these cards came from the same source. The eBay cards are from a seller who doesn’t know what they are (in Canada) and my cards came from a baseball card dealer in the States. I can’t find it right now, or maybe I just remember seeing it and don’t actually own it, but I have seen a Harris from a third source with the same exact cut (no borders and an even cut).[/size]

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards V100z

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards V100z

by fisherboy7 Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:23 pm

That would certainly be an interesting discovery if true, Zach. You're right, there does seem to be an abnormally large % of trimmed v100 willards cards.

I do still think they are v100's though and not another issue because of the identical poses. Maybe kids were more inclined to trim these cards because their borders are so huge, practically an open invitation for a scissor job Laughing

For example, here's a scan of a full bordered V100 Harris to compare with the trimmed one that you posted.

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards V100ha10

by sabrjay Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:26 pm

Interesting theory, and does make sense that these boarderless cards are a different issue. If cutting off boarders was a regular practice, we should be finding tons of Goudeys, t206s and other commons issues with lots of card that have the boarders trimmed off.

Jay

by scott elkins Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:50 pm

I am in agreement with Zach on these - seems to be an entirely different issue to me. I would love to own one, but hate to bid on these, since I didn't "find" them. I was wondering - would five of your guys like to "go in" on these with me and we could split the cards up? This way, if they are trimmed cards, we won't be losing but a nominal amount each. And, if these cards are an entirely different unc. issue, six board members will have an example! LMK if this interests any of you guys. I would really love the horizontal or the guy setting on the bench, but am flexible. Also, if you board members want to "go in" on these and want me to use my eBay account to bid, I will ship them to every bidder in our bunch for FREE after they arrive! We can work out the details if there is interest - looks like the Grover Alexander will be the highest % card of the group (and I don't mind taking it at a higher % if others don't want it - again, I am flexible). PLMK in this thread, as I really have an interest in this lot and would love for six of us to pick up an example!

by fisherboy7 Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:34 am

Scott - Don't worry about not finding the auction yourself, you can bid on it if you like. Frankly, if I thought they were something other than trimmed v100's, you know I'd be in on your group deal. But I'm pretty confident that they aren't.

Another indicator that they're v100's - they have "Photo by International" in small writing down near the bottom left corner, identical to the Willards cards. Also, the cards in the auction don't look like straight cuts to me and neither do Zach's. Looking closely at the auction scan - the card in the bottom right wasn't cut close and still shows a partial white border on the top and left edges.

Hate to be a party pooper, and of course these are only my opinions, but you know that if I felt we had any chance at scoring a lot of 6 uncat cards I'd be all over it. Still, there must an explanation for the trimming and similar numbering on such a large number of these cards, and that would certainly be an interesting investigation if someone decided to pursue it.

by ItsOnlyGil Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:09 am

What I find most remarkable is that the cuts on all of these cards are as strong as they are.
The screw ups are the exception. But the wavering on the right side of Zach's Faber is undeniable.
As is the left border of the at auction Kolp.
imo.

by scott elkins Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:20 am

If I can win them at the minimum bid, I think I will try, simply to take a little gamble Ben. If they are trimmed, they are still worth the minimum bid to me, as I think they are neat with the numbers stamped on the fronts. Very Happy

by fisherboy7 Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:41 pm

Sure thing, Scott. Sometimes it's fun to roll the dice, and even if they aren't what you're hoping they are, you've still got an Alexander in there. Some of those other poses are cool looking too (the horizontal one and the seated player one).

I'd like to retract my initial statement about them being "basically worthless" with the borders trimmed off. I'm sure plenty of collectors would welcome them happily into their collections. I sinned against the card gods and I'm sorry for it!! Embarassed

by scott elkins Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:04 pm

Don't worry about your "worthless" statement Ben - I use to feel the same way about trimmed cards. Now, it seems trimmed cards are outselling most 1's and some 2's with the avent of the authentic grade.

Anyway, I like these cards simply b/c they have "character". Plus, there is the allure they might be something more than meets the eye - especially with the numbers stamped on the fronts. Then again, the numbers might have come from a kid's stamper after he trimmed these? I think for less than $10 each, I will take the gamble. If worse comes to worst, I will at least have some V100's with character.

by glenv Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:20 pm

The reverse happened a few years ago. Someone was selling a "trimmed V100" for a couple bucks, but it turned out to be a Schapiro...

Here's my example:

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards Schapi10

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards Schapi10

by fisherboy7 Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:42 pm

Great Maranville, Glen. That's the only Schapira HOFer I've actually seen other than the Cobb. I do know of a Johnson that belongs to a collector friend though.

So what are your thoughts on the 6 card auction from the initial post? Definitely trimmed v100's, or, as others have suggested, possibly something different due to the consistent markings across a large population of these cards?

by scott elkins Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:15 am

Ben, I was outbid. So, knowing my luck, they are a seperate rare unc. issue! Sad

by glenv Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:27 am

I'll go with cut down V100s. Not sure why they are often trimmed, but other issues sometimes have the ads trimmed off. Maybe it was done to take up less space in the scrapbook.

by fisherboy7 Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:52 am

Glen, I concur. Full sized V100's have fatter borders than just about any pre-1930 issue I can think of. So, in the old days, cutting them down to fit in a scrapbook made a lot of sense given how much wasted space those borders would have otherwise taken up.

HEY look what's on ebay. This Ruth has identical markings to the group of 6 and the others we discussed. I guess the "experts" Rolling Eyes

over at PSA agree with the trimmed v100 determination:

1921/22 E-unc Schapira Bros. Big Show Candy cards Ruthv100a

by kylebicking Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:23 pm

I sold the Big Show Cobb Goodwin's auction last Fall. Very cool card, beyond tough to find. The key to the set is the "Underwood and Underwood" line near the player's name. That was the only way I was able to identify the card after buying it over the summer.

Also, it should be noted the cards are from 1921-22. Oldcardboard.com has an article linking them to this era.

-Kyle

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Big Show Cobb

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