OJ question

I am not sure of anything which follows this sentence.

Old Judge cards were not issued for every minor league team. Sometimes such a non-covered team gets represented because a player previously portrayed, joins that team. OJs were very thorough in updating player movements, and reissuing team change cards.

When this happens (that a team becomes represented solely because of a player's movement), that card is a rarity for those collectors who collect OJs by team.

Sam Shaw pitched for the Orioles in 1888. The link below is an 1889 OJ of Shaw. Don't forget my first sentence + I'm not sure how much demand there is by OJ team collectors.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=330250310434

Baltimore is one of the cities where there is pretty dedicated core of collectors that seek out cards of players that are represented as playing for Baltimore. Other cities that I've found to have a good following are Detroit, Minneapolis/Minnesota, San Francisco and St Louis. There are e lot of NY collectors, but they they either focus on post 1920 Yankees or 19c New York teams. I've never noticed much of a crossover between the two. SF is sort of the same, most SF collectors look solely PCL related items.

Jay

Jay: when I referenced collectors who collect by team, I was thinking one card per team, all teams.

We now know that Gill is the devil becuase his post count is 666. But that will change shortly

I understood what you were getting at with your comment. I was just making a general comment about team collecting.

Jay

The Detroit Wolverines couldn't afford to pay their star players fairly, so they disbanded in 1888. Henry Ford was 25 years old at that time, and probably chasing skirts and thinking about cars, but not yet doing anything about cars.

Since the Wolverines were not active in 1889 or thereafter, OJ cards produced in 1889 and thereafter do not portray Wolverine team members. Yet in our 19th century images section, there is such a card for Detroit. It is a GAI McGuire. A check of Baseball Reference does not clarify what Deacon McGuire was doing during 1889. But it is clear that he was not a member of the disbanded Detroit Wolverines.

So, my question is: do we need two catagories of 19th century OJ Detroit cards, one for the Wolverines; the other for McGuire and perhaps others? An International League Detroit team?





Here's another:

____________________________________________________________


Records of Professional Baseball Teams that have played in Newark, New Jersey
Major League baseball in Newark
League Year Team Record Standing
Federal League 1915 Newark Peppers 80-72 5th Place

Minor League baseball in Newark

Class League Year Team (affiliate) Record Standing
Eastern League 1884 Newark Domestics 40-43 3rd
Eastern League 1885 Newark Domestics 42-49 4th
Eastern League 1886 Newark Little Giants 68-26 1st
International League 1887 Newark Little Giants 59-39 4th
Central League 1888 Newark Trunkmakers 83-23 1st
Atlantic Association 1889 Newark Little Giants 54-40 2nd
Atlantic Association 1890 Newark Little Giants 60-61 3rd
Atlantic League 1896 Newark Colts 82-61 1st (not in playoffs)
Atlantic League 1897 Newark Colts 89-52 2nd
Atlantic League 1898 Newark Colts 58-71 6th
Atlantic League 1899 Newark Colts 42-54 6th

____________________________________________________________

The Collins card was issued in 1888, the other two Newark cards are of 1889 vintage. It appears from the table above that these represent different teams, in different leagues; much like the Detroit cards ca. 1888/1889 do.

Do you agree?

Can you imagine a team called The Trunkmakers today?

Jay

I can see the OJ - Trunkmakers, and
OJ - Little Giants threads now.
Can't wait to find out the name of that missing Detroit team, to go along with the
OJ - Wolverines.
But actually, these do not deserve seperate threads.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I came to a (Berra-like) fork in the road, and I took it. This is what happened: I was wandering down the "get the Det. minor league team name, Gil" path, I found that they won the IL title that year, probably because of the Wolverine players, but come 1890 they too disbanded This was because in 1890 there was the Player's League everywhere - scoffing up players. And this team was a prime target.

Then, all of a sudden, I come across this SABR statement "In 1890 the Toledo Black Pirates gained major league status when a players' revolt sparked an upheaval in baseball. Players rebelled against the owners' imposition of a salary classification plan and of the reserve clause, which bound a player to his team for life. Many players from the National League and American Association (AA) jumped to the new Players League. In the shuffle of franchises, three members of the 1889 International Association -- Rochester, Syracuse and Toledo -- joined the AA".

And I said to myself: "Gil, the Toledo Black Pirates is a team with an interesting ring to its name. Especially for a major league team; even if only for an instant - take this fork and get a look at their roster". So, if anyone is looking for me, I will be ambling down this road; with a new mission in mind.

Has anyone been down this way before?

Gil,

Just in case you think you are babbling. I find this very interesting, continue down the road, hopefully there are more interesting forks. (a smiley on a motorcycle would be cool here).

Lee

Well, I've completed my meandering down that path, and although all of the information has not yet been digested, I see no indication that the trip will achieve my objective. What I was seeking was to find that lightening had struck twice in Toledo's absorption into the AA. The first time which this occured, 1884 brought us Fleet Walker, among others.

My notes on this trip are appended below, and will be fully analyzed over the next little while.

__________________________________________________________


In 1884 Toledo joined the American Association, which was a major league at that time in competition with the National League. Walker made his major league debut on May 1 versus the Louisville Eclipse.




ALL TIME ROSTER


Professional baseball has been played in Toledo since 1883. This is the official list of all players that have appeared in a Toledo uniform over the years.


MUD HENS NOTABLES

Addie Joss
Casey Stengel
Jeff Weaver

Travis Fryman
Moses “Fleetwood” Walker
Hack Wilson

Kirby Puckett
Frank Viola
Eric Wedge

Jim Thorpe
Mud Hens in the Hall of Fame

Players That Have Played at Fifth Third Field (PDF)
SEARCH BY:
Letter: A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | I | J | K | L | M | N | O | P | Q | R | S | T | U | V | W | X | Y | Z




First Name:
Last Name:

Bottom of Form

Year:





PLAYER YEARS PLAYED
Dan Abbott
1890
Ed Cushman 1883, 1889, 1890
Milt Cuyler 1989, 1890, 1894, 1895
Babe Doty 1890
John Healy 1890
Parson Nicholson 1889, 1890, 1892
Ed O’Neil 1890
John Peltz 1890
Floyd Ritter 1890
Emmett Rogers 1889, 1890
Harry Sage 1889, 1890
Frank Scheibeck 1890, 1902
Fred Smith 1889, 1890
John Sneed 1889, 1890
Charlie Sprague 1889, 1890
Ed Swartwood 1890
George Tebeau 1890
Bill Van Dyke 1889, 1890
Don Vesling 1989, 1890, 1891
Tub Welch 1890
Perry Werden 1889, 1890




Speranza Park
Occupant: Toledo Maumees a.k.a. Black Pirates - TSL (1888 starting July 4); International League (1889); AA (1890)
Location: Triangular block bounded by Cherry Street (northeast), Frederick Street (south), and Franklin Avenue (west).
Currently: Grounds of St. Vincent Mercy Medical Center


Walker caught for the Toledo Blue Stockings, a team that was promoted to Major League status when it joined the American Association in 1883, and was the last African American to play Major League...
When the 1884 Toledo Blue Stockings joined the American Association, then considered along with the National League to be a major league, their roster included a twenty-seven year old catcher named Moses Fleetwood Walker. What was unusual about this player was that he was an African-American, one of a very few at that time not relegated to playing on all-black teams.


1889:

Billy Alvord 1889
Sam Barkley 1883, 1884, 1889
William Bottenus 1888, 1889
Ed Cushman 1883, 1889, 1890
Bill Garfield 1888, 1889
Bill Joyce 1889
Charlie Morton 1883, 1884, 1889
Parson Nicholson 1889, 1890, 1892
Joe Quest 1889
Emmett Rogers 1889, 1890
Harry Sage 1889, 1890
Taylor Shaffer 1889
Fred Smith 1889, 1890
John Sneed 1889, 1890
Charlie Sprague 1889, 1890
George Stallings 1889
Art Sunday 1889
Bill Van Dyke 1889, 1890
William Wehrle 1889
Perry Werden 1889, 1890



The Toledo Black Pirates played in the International Association in 1889, right between the last two Major League teams from Toledo, OH. That year the Black Pirates went 54-51 to finish fourth under the guidance of Charlie Morton. Ed Cushman (18-14, 2.09) led the IA with 198 strikeouts. Future MLB star Bill Joyce hit just .163, though he led the team with 5 homers in just 30 games. 1B Perry Werden was the offensive star, hitting .394 to lead the league. Werden scored 107, stole 58 bases and led the league in hits (167) and the team in doubles (32), triples (11) and runs.
American Association Franchise History American Association Pennant Winners
1 *Baltimore Orioles (1882-1889;1890-1891)
2 ~Cincinnati Red Stockings(1882-1889)
3 Eclipse of Louisville(1882-1883)
*Louisville Colonels (1883-1891)
4 Philadelphia Athletic(1882-1890)
5 #Pittsburgh Alleghenys(1882-1887)
6 *St. Louis Brown Stockings(1882-1891)
7 Columbus Colts (1883)
Columbus Senators (1884)
8 New York Metropolitans(1883-1887)
9 ~Brooklyn Bridegrooms(1884-1889)
10 Indianapolis Blues (1884)
11 Richmond Virginias (1884)
12 Toledo Blue Stockings(1884)
13 Washington DCs (1884)
14 ^Cleveland Spiders (1887-1888)
15 Kansas City Blues (1888-1889)
16 Columbus Colts (1889)
Columbus Salons (1890-1891)
17 Brooklyn Gladiators(1890)
18 Rochester Hop Bitters(1890)
19 Syracuse Stars (1890)
20 Toledo Maumees (1890)
21 Boston Reds (1891)
22 Cincinnati Porkers (1891)
23 Milwaukee Brewers (1891)
24 *Washington Senators(1891)




Pittsburgh Pirates- got the name in 1891 after the Players League folded. The PL players were supposed to return to their 1889 NL or AA teams, but Lou Bierbauer was awarded to Pittsburgh (instead of Philadelphia in the AA) on the grounds that he hadn't been officially reserved.

Considering that the 1890 NL Pirates were one of the two or three worst teams in ML history, it's sort of understandable that they wouldn't want to give up the top second baseman in baseball once they got him, but they didn't just get Bierbauer, they got saddled forever with the name Pirates.