It is really ironic.............

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

It is really ironic.............

Post by scott elkins on Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:24 am

that I created the Aimoo forum with Jay so that people could post freely. Then, when we had problems with the Aimoo host, Ben found this site. He began working on it, so, out of the respect to him, I make him an administrator/moderator of the NEW site (this one - Full Count). Well, Jay and Ben have decided, after receiving some e-mails from a few whiners, to strip me of my administrator/moderator status on the very board I helped create for the sole purpous of FREE SPEACH on a board!

I know what I said was sometimes not popular, but I always told it like it was and laid it out in plain view. Also, if it was controversial, unless I was replying to a post, I would start my rants in the BULL PEN (Jay and I created the Bull Pen on the Aimoo board, so that the whiners wouldn't have to see anything controversial in the main thread - they would have to go out of their way to view controversial threads and would have no reason to whine).

If you like what I say or not, this still is not right (Jay and Ben doing me this way - striping me of my administrator role). Afterall, I paid for Aimoo for well over two years when Jay and I created that forum (we still have time left over there until July this year). While Ben found this site and did the work, I did approve this site for the switch from Aimoo and have put a lot of time in myself - even offsite, answering EVERY question that members ask me each day in detail! I even made Ben an administrator for finding this site and his work. Then he turns Brutus on me. TBH - I always expected something like this from Jay. I guess b/c he was always jealous of Leon's banner money - even going as far on Net 54 to say that Leon should give regular posters like himself a cut of the money. However, with me, it was more about the old Full Count board and FREEDOM than money. I NEVER wanted ad money (the thought NEVER crossed my mind - ever!). All I wanted was a place EVERYONE could post without worrying about their posts being edited or deleted - well, needless to say, Jay has deleted several of my posts on Aimoo and now here - Shouldn't one of the board's founders be given the same freedom as every other poster? Again, I am not saying you have to agree with everything I say. This is the SAME as your Consititutional RIGHT to Free Speach - we might not agree with things people say, but they DO have the right to say them! righton

Anyway, that is enough ranting for me this morning. I just wanted to let everyone know what happened (IF this post doesn't get deleted and/or edited)! flaglol

scott elkins
Inactive

Posts : 581
Trader Points :
8 / 1008 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by fisherboy7 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:27 am

Scott, your post will not be deleted or edited. I appreciate that you've decided to come on and explain your side in a civil tone.

First and foremost I want to say that the removal of your mod privileges was only meant to be a temporary thing. It was my intention that you would return to your former status after things had been worked out and you were on the same page with the rest of the mods.

Truth be told, it was much more than "some e-mails from a few whiners" that triggered the decision. Shortly after this forum was created, the mods (yourself included) agreed to refrain from any sort of mudslinging between the two forums and to focus on what brings us here in the first place - the cards. We did that out of the best interests of Full Count. Yet, your rantings never ceased despite numerous requests for them to stop; from the admins as well as many of the membership. I have been contacted by many respected members privately who expressed concern that it was damaging the legitimacy of the forum, and frankly I agreed with them. Members have also expressed these same sentiments in the several threads we've had on the forum in recent weeks. I would say without exaggeration that the overwhelming majority of the membership here feels this way Scott.

See, everyone knows quite well how you feel about Leon and net54. Many here would likely sympathize with some of your opinions on those matters. But to dwell on this and repeatedly make those sorts of posts is not only redundant, but damaging to Full Count. It got to the point where Jay had to delete these posts. Believe me, the last thing I want to see is posts being deleted. Especially from another mod! But you really left us no choice. There are certain responsibilities that go along with being a moderator on any forum. This is not an issue of free speech and our constitutional rights, it's about doing what's best for our forum. A moderator should provide a good example to the rest of the board - and you've done so admirably with your card-related posts on a daily basis. But the tirades just would never stop, and something had to be done. Things were getting out of control. After you deleted John's 30+ post thread from the Bullpen I was afraid of what else might go next. So the move was made out of the short term protection of the forum until things settled down.

Now I realize that some people on the other board have chosen to take pot shots at you, giving you no way of responding to them. That's really not fair and I hope it stops NOW. But I urge you to be the bigger man in all of this and ignore it. It will die if you let it die.

Like I said at the outset (and many times to you via PM) I was hoping the removal will only be a temporary thing. And it was done not for any personal reasons between you, myself, Jay, or anyone else here. It was done for the protection of Full Count. Would hate this to be the reason we lose a core member of this board. I still think we can work this out, but it's going to take a serious commitment on your end.

_________________

Ben
avatar
fisherboy7
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4280
Trader Points :
36 / 10036 / 100


View user profile http://www.imageevent.com/fisherboy7

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by the-illini on Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:11 pm

Just my 2 cents, but this board is at its best when we are talking about cards, not N54. I originally came here because of the card-focused content, which I personally felt had become lacking on the N54 site. I dont blame Scott for being upset about the continued pot shots at him, but I agree that I dont think it does any good to continue beating a dead horse.

Scott, it would be a shame to lose you, but try to step back and think about why this board was started - it was to discuss vintage cards. Many people have joined for the same reason - not to discuss N54. I hope you will take this in the spirit it was offered.

Chris
avatar
the-illini
MVP
MVP

Posts : 365
Trader Points :
11 / 10011 / 100


View user profile http://www.imageevent.com/crb972

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by ItsOnlyGil on Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:15 pm

All which follows is simply my humble opinion.
It is my opinion that it is wrong to censor, edit or delete any post; ever.
No rational changes this. For example: "about doing what's best for our forum", is insufficient in my estimation, as is any other excuse. It is simply not ok to censor (or "move" posts to an area which is totally unaccessable).

I fully recognize that people get stuck in a rut in their thinking, myself included. It really doesn't matter if the subject is "no censoring", "PSA8 and above is the only way to collect", "Johnny Kling stuff", "Anti-Leon sentiment", "PSA bashing", "t-206", or a host of other subjects; these ruts get old for Forum participants. I see Scott's postings regarding Net54 as one of these "ruts".

And I recognize that there are those who like these subjects, and want to hear more about them. Due to this, I propose that we create a place for these rut threads which can be viewed if wanted, but they do not appear on the "postings since your last visit" utility, if that is possible.

I have not e-mailed any moderator nor other participant on anything remotely related to this subject ever, because I think that my statements should be open to the criticism of all. However, I do not think that disciplinary action is warranted here, as much as management of our resources in order to not stifle free speach, is needed. By providing a venue of value to multiple redundant subjects I think that we can accomodate the objectives of all of our participants.

How many more posts do you want to see entitled "Is this t-206 Wagner real?"
Put those in the rut section of our forum with the subtitle "t-206 Wagner". It could be educational configured like that. The same for the "no censorship" rut, and others.
avatar
ItsOnlyGil
Retired
Retired

Posts : 1145
Trader Points :
2 / 1002 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by crazylocomerk on Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:53 pm

I couldn't agree with Gil more on all sides.1515

Disciplinary action is not needed, and censorship is bad.

Start that section for ďrut threadsĒ if you can, and keep it confined to there.
avatar
crazylocomerk
KOTTON King
KOTTON King

Posts : 2742
Trader Points :
12 / 10012 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by onlychild on Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:59 pm

I ran an off-subject forum for years. It generated 10,000 hits a day at times. With that comes personal agendas, upset posters and everything in between. I finally made a topic at the bottom called "Vent Here". It worked great and was the best thing I ever did.

Scott has always been awesome IMO when responding to card related topics. He just needs to blow off some steam...I understand.
avatar
onlychild
All Star
All Star

Posts : 187
Trader Points :
1 / 1001 / 100


View user profile http://www.AlteredCards.com

Back to top Go down

Well...

Post by Square_Frame_Ramly on Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:15 pm

I am glad to see this thread was not deleted. Scott got to say what he wanted and he has received great/fair responses. "Vent Here" section sounds cool but i would not want members coming here just to read the next post in an on-line bashing. We should come here for great card talk and thats what it has been.

I read many post at net54 about Scott and what he does and where he lives. I am sick off reading it myself, as is Scott i'm sure. I believe he was trying to protect himself, as would anyone else, and is just tired of all the crap he gets. I believe its over and all should move on. lol!

Mark
avatar
Square_Frame_Ramly
FC NCAA Bracket Champ
FC NCAA Bracket Champ

Posts : 2773
Trader Points :
15 / 10015 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by fisherboy7 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:28 pm

I absolutely agree that censorship is wrong and that posts should not be deleted on this forum. I personally have never done so, and Jay did a few times as a last resort. I also understand how Scott must feel when being chastised on net54 with no recourse. That kind of stuff is cheap, shows no class, and reflects poorly on those who do it. Scott can take this as an opportunity to show that he's the bigger man. I feel strongly that if Scott restrains himself and stops responding to their junk over here, they will stop over there as well. That's what I meant when I said "what's best for the forum". I'd like to see Scott commit to this - and if he does, he will have everyone's support and he'll be a mod again in no time.

_________________

Ben
avatar
fisherboy7
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4280
Trader Points :
36 / 10036 / 100


View user profile http://www.imageevent.com/fisherboy7

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by the-illini on Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:52 pm

Last thing I will say about this:

I dont go to a vintage card site to argue the merits of cockfighting, just as i wouldnt go to a cockfighting board (i assume there is such a thing) to talk about which Old Judge HOFer is more difficult to acquire. Its a baseball card board - why cant that be its sole focus?
avatar
the-illini
MVP
MVP

Posts : 365
Trader Points :
11 / 10011 / 100


View user profile http://www.imageevent.com/crb972

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by scott elkins on Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:30 pm

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH WHAT THE MEMBERS HAVE STATED HERE - NO POSTS/THREADS SHOULD BE DELETED! THERE IS A PLACE FOR O/T POSTS AND RANTS - THIS IS THE BULLPEN, AND THAT WAS WHERE I POSTED. ALSO, I DID NOT POST ANYTHING ABOUT LEON AND/OR NET 54 IN THE POST THAT WAS DELETED - IT WAS SIMPLY A RESPONSE TO THREE POSTS BY WONKA!

AGAIN, THIS BOARD DIFFERENCIATES ITSELF FROM NET 54 BY NOT DELETING AND/OR EDITING POSTS OF MEMBERS. EVEN WONKA WAS ANGRY WHEN BEN LOCKED THE THREAD WHERE WONKA WAS RANTING - EVEN STARTING ANOTHER THREAD ASKING WHAT WAS UP WITH THE CENSORSHIP OF THE THREAD, SINCE THIS BOARD HAS PRIDED ITSELF ON NO CENSORSHIP SINCE DAY ONE OF AIMOO!

FACT IS, I AM NOT GOING TO PARTICIPATE HERE - EVEN THOUGH IF IT WEREN'T FOR ME, THIS BOARD WOULD NOT EXIST, IF THERE IS GOING TO BE CENSORSHIP. AGAIN, WE HAVE THE BULL PEN FOR O/T POSTS AND PEOPLE NEED TO REALIZE THIS - MAYBE WE SHOULD PUT A WARNING UNDER THE BULL PEN, SO PEOPLE WON'T SEE SOMETHING THEY DISLIKE IN THE CATEGORY AND START WHINNING!? ANYWAY, I WILL LEAVE THIS UP TO BEN. I WAS NICE ENOUGH TO MAKE HIM AN ADMIN/MODERATOR FOR HIS HARD WORK. THEN, HE TURNS BRUTUS AND STABS ME IN THE BACK (ALONG WITH JAY). THEY CAN GO AHEAD AND REINSTATE ME BACK TO MY ORIGINAL STATUS, OR I WILL SIMPLY CREATE A NEW FORUM SOON WITH ADMINS/MODERATORS WHO LOVE THE HOBBY AND TRULY BELIEVE IN NO EDITING AND/OR DELETING - THE CALL IS UP TO YOU BEN!

scott elkins
Inactive

Posts : 581
Trader Points :
8 / 1008 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by nolemmings on Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:39 pm

See ya!
avatar
nolemmings
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer

Posts : 552
Trader Points :
4 / 1004 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by scott elkins on Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:49 pm

One can tell from the post above that this is NOT about any rants - some people simply want me gone! Most of these people, are regular Net 54 posters and more than likely friends with Jeff L., Dan B. and/or Leon. Anyone with an IQ above five can realize why these people would want me gone - nobody left to point out what they are doing if I am not here! I hate to burst your bubbles, but I, along with Jay, founded Aimoo, and indirectly this forum.

Again, the BULL PEN is for O/T posts. However, you have a handful who complain about postings on there. Well, either these people complaining don't have the IQ to realize NOT to look in the Bull Pen section, or they have other motives. One thing I have noticed since being one of the first few members on the Old Full Count board is that SOME PEOPLE (USUALLY THE SAME ONES) are going to complain about a LOT of things on these forums. Again, if O/T posts are in a SEPERATE category, like the Bull Pen, then there is NO REASON for a complaint, unless the person complaining is simply a moron!!!

scott elkins
Inactive

Posts : 581
Trader Points :
8 / 1008 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by the-illini on Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:53 pm

Scott,

Why did you delete a thread if you are so against censorship?
avatar
the-illini
MVP
MVP

Posts : 365
Trader Points :
11 / 10011 / 100


View user profile http://www.imageevent.com/crb972

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by scott elkins on Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:56 pm

One more thing, while going throug the posts above. Kevin, you and I even think alike! Both of us being disabled veterans, must have an impact on our thinking as well. Anyway, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Controversy draws in the crowd. Ben claims he received all these e-mails about my rants - well, one thing is for certain, they ALL read the rants! Also, only a small percent will even respond or complain, so think of how many people read the rants and didn't say anything (simply b/c they agree with what I said or didn't feel a need to compain)!

scott elkins
Inactive

Posts : 581
Trader Points :
8 / 1008 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by wonkaticket on Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:58 pm



To be fair here Scott, the only reason I had posts (3) in total was one too you and 2 to other folks not even directed at you. In fact the only reason I even replied to you was once again you were ranting that I had stopped posting because Leon had dictated it to me over our NYC dinner which I found highly absurd and unfounded. My last post which you deleted only addressed you calling me a newbie and new to the hobby, which I still find hilarious Iíve been collecting almost as long as you. LOL

I backed off posting here mainly because I got tired of hearing about how bad Leon and Jeff Lichtman are and how youíre a swell guy who has been wrongly persecuted over the all American sport of cockfighting. While I find the hobby of cockfighting offensive and barbaric, your business your time and its legal so knock yourself out, I just got tired of you justifying it and pushing the hard sell on why itís ok. Leonís a dope dealer Lichtman is a mob boss crap got old real quick. Thatís why posts from me slowed nobody else, not as complex as a Leon conspiracy theory.

Iím with Chris I would rather discuss cards not the merits of cockfighting and why Leon and Net54 are the antichrist. I also have no problems arguing and ranting over cards, which Kevin S and I do from time to time, we argue and perhaps arenít each others biggest fans but its card related and it ends there.
avatar
wonkaticket
All Star
All Star

Posts : 201
Trader Points :
0 / 1000 / 100


View user profile http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/collection

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by scott elkins on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:00 pm

GREAT QUESTION ILLINI!

I explained this to Ben. I had worked for over 15 minutes articulating my response to Wonka's THREE posts! I felt I had the perfect response that addressed all of his inconsistencies. Then, to come back and have this deleted! Well, my figuring was that if I didn't respond, people would assume I didn't b/c Wonka was right - and, that was far from the truth! I also figured there might be some type of a coup in the works, so I felt the best thing to do was delete the thread, as, if I would have made another response, it would have been deleted and I would probably not even be able to post later at all.

scott elkins
Inactive

Posts : 581
Trader Points :
8 / 1008 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by scott elkins on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:03 pm

John, take one moment and read your post! YOU are the one who continually brings up cockfighting - NOT ME! IF YOU ARE SO SET AGAINST DISCUSSING COCKFIGHTING, THEN WHY MUST YOU BRING IT UP EVERY CHANCE YOU HAVE??? I WILL TELL YOU WHY - YOU ARE A TROUBLE MAKER AND HAVE BEEN SINCE YOU CAME ON AIMOO AND ATTACKED KEVING FOR NO REASON!

scott elkins
Inactive

Posts : 581
Trader Points :
8 / 1008 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by the-illini on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:10 pm

If you are 100% against censorship, you cant delete a whole thread just because it appears that someone else wins. IMO you should have sent a PM to the person who deleted it expaining why you felt they were wrong, but whatever.

Let me know if this board ever gets back to the topic it was created for...
avatar
the-illini
MVP
MVP

Posts : 365
Trader Points :
11 / 10011 / 100


View user profile http://www.imageevent.com/crb972

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by Jacklitsch on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:15 pm

Hmmmmmmmmm? Evil or Very Mad

P.S. I too am a disabled Vet but what does that have to do with things. scratch
avatar
Jacklitsch
All Star
All Star

Posts : 149
Trader Points :
0 / 1000 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by fisherboy7 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:16 pm

scott elkins wrote:FACT IS, I AM NOT GOING TO PARTICIPATE HERE - EVEN THOUGH IF IT WEREN'T FOR ME, THIS BOARD WOULD NOT EXIST, IF THERE IS GOING TO BE CENSORSHIP. AGAIN, WE HAVE THE BULL PEN FOR O/T POSTS AND PEOPLE NEED TO REALIZE THIS - MAYBE WE SHOULD PUT A WARNING UNDER THE BULL PEN, SO PEOPLE WON'T SEE SOMETHING THEY DISLIKE IN THE CATEGORY AND START WHINNING!? ANYWAY, I WILL LEAVE THIS UP TO BEN. I WAS NICE ENOUGH TO MAKE HIM AN ADMIN/MODERATOR FOR HIS HARD WORK. THEN, HE TURNS BRUTUS AND STABS ME IN THE BACK (ALONG WITH JAY). THEY CAN GO AHEAD AND REINSTATE ME BACK TO MY ORIGINAL STATUS, OR I WILL SIMPLY CREATE A NEW FORUM SOON WITH ADMINS/MODERATORS WHO LOVE THE HOBBY AND TRULY BELIEVE IN NO EDITING AND/OR DELETING - THE CALL IS UP TO YOU BEN!

Scott, you've effectively turned this thread around and made it about censorship, when the real issue was your constant ranting and the damage it has done to the forum. Hardly the kind of behavior one would expect from a moderator. The obvious hypocrisy of this is that you yourself decided to delete an entire 30+ post thread just a few days ago. As I said in my previous post, I'm completely against censorship as well, and have never deleted a single post on this forum since its inception. Anyways, back to the real issue at hand.

You had two paths you could have taken with that post, and I see you've made your decision. It could have been a welcome back party but unfortunately it will have to be your swansong. All that was needed on your part was a simple commitment to stay away from the never ending flamewar and stick to cards. Shouldn't have been too hard to do, seeing as this is a vintage card forum. I was hoping you'd respond in a mature fashion but that's unfortunately not how it went down. I wish this didn't have to end in this way, but you've left us with no choice. Bye for now Scott.

And Chris, yes. We can now get back to cards.

_________________

Ben
avatar
fisherboy7
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4280
Trader Points :
36 / 10036 / 100


View user profile http://www.imageevent.com/fisherboy7

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by wonkaticket on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:23 pm

Scott; yawn...sure I am trouble maker. Funny you had no issue with me until I stopped posting and was turned off by your hobby, which trust me you mention way more than anybody. In fact the only time Iíve mentioned your hobby and my feelings towards your hobby was in the thread you deleted Scott, funny whereís that thread now? Oh and maybe a few chickens in jogging suits on Net54, very funny by the way in fact even in Rocky he had to catch a chicken so I see how the world of boxing and chicken fighting go hand and hand.

I will ONCE again state for the record I donít attack Kevin, I have asked pointed questions which he continually skirts or gets defensive once anyone not just me asks. Kevin has even emailed me to chat, so I find it very funny that he seems to think Iím such a bad guy; seems to me I would not be around such a bad seed as myself.

By the way donít chalk it up to a Veteran thing either ScottÖyour just in a total scramble mode and looking for anyone to back you in your corner on this thing, in fact I went and railed on Leon Iíd be your buddy again. In fact if the Aimoo board was up I would to pull the PM you sent when Kevin I butted heads about how were both great posters and you understood where I was coming from and I should give Kevin a chance because he was also a good guyÖfunny how times change.

Hmmm how many forums have I been banned from? Hmm how many forums have I been given disciplinary action from? My answer is none, whatís yours Scott?
avatar
wonkaticket
All Star
All Star

Posts : 201
Trader Points :
0 / 1000 / 100


View user profile http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/collection

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by bowlingshoeguy on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:27 pm

Scott, Is there a chance that it can be dropped and move on to cards. we can not please everyone and we all live our lives the way we feel comfortable.

Your responses to this stuff brings nothing positive to this board and you do bring alot of positives when you talk cards. You need to overlook this stuff and move on, you have way to much card knowledge to not be an overall positive factor on this board.

Let's get back to cards, In case you all missed it Field of Dreams was on TV last week. Laughing

Lee
avatar
bowlingshoeguy
Sultan of the Cycle Back
Sultan of the Cycle Back

Posts : 3106
Trader Points :
53 / 10053 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Field of Dreams, you gave me the wrong channel Lee!

Post by wonkaticket on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:29 pm

Lee, I turned to Cinemax and it wasn't what I expected...but on the other hand has anyone seen "Field of Creams"?

Plot was pretty good... Smile
avatar
wonkaticket
All Star
All Star

Posts : 201
Trader Points :
0 / 1000 / 100


View user profile http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/collection

Back to top Go down

hmmm....

Post by Square_Frame_Ramly on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:30 pm

Now i get it....THIS IS ALL AN APRIL FOOLS JOKE...HA,HA YOU GUYS HAD ME GOING FOR A WHILE Laughing


Mark
avatar
Square_Frame_Ramly
FC NCAA Bracket Champ
FC NCAA Bracket Champ

Posts : 2773
Trader Points :
15 / 10015 / 100


View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by fisherboy7 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:31 pm

Lee, please see my final post on pg 1. Scott will be taking a one week vacation from the board, at which point a final determination will be made. He has been given countless opportunities to make this right, but he has chosen not to. Maybe all he needs is some time away from the forum. If he feels any differently after a week, he is free to contact me and we'll work on setting things right. But for now, we really need this stuff to end so we can get back to cards.

_________________

Ben
avatar
fisherboy7
Admin
Admin

Posts : 4280
Trader Points :
36 / 10036 / 100


View user profile http://www.imageevent.com/fisherboy7

Back to top Go down

Re: It is really ironic.............

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum