"Would You Like Some Fraud With That?"

i love jackie gleason...and I must admit I have thrown stoopid money at cards I had to have.

ullmandds wrote:i love jackie gleason...and I must admit I have thrown stoopid money at cards I had to have.

The thread has nothing to do with what one is willing to pay for a card.  Collectors are entitled to bid whatever they wish - that should be obvious to anyone.  It is simply about whether software programs should facilitate shill bidding through providing the option to see max bids.  I honestly don't see how any collector can support that.

While I agree with you Jamie...that obviously software programs should not facilitate shill bidding...Wonka's point...and my ambivalence stems from the fact that this is the way it is...so accept it or don't participate!

My love for this hobby transcends my desire to leave it totally...but my buying has been dramatically curtailed because of it.

I've accepted that the world is corrupt and full of cheaters in most aspects of daily life. If our government...and all governments are corrupt...and full of greedy cheaters...why should I expect baseball card auction houses to not be?

Pete pretty much summed up my view of things. I didn't think of it before, but it also goes a long to explaining why I like the Ars Longa cards. I don't have to worry about anyone shill bidding and I can get cards that look vintage of players that I want. Plus they are in my price range right now. It will be several years before I'll be able to afford to add anything new to the Gang of Ten.

ullmandds wrote:While I agree with you Jamie...that obviously software programs should not facilitate shill bidding...Wonka's point...and my ambivalence stems from the fact that this is the way it is...so accept it or don't participate!

Pete, I don't think that that is the right attitude to take.  It is completely irreverent, and you have expressed plenty of outrage yourself already about what is going on in this hobby.  When people tell you that something is just the way it is, I will use the words of Bruce Hornsby to say, "Ah, don't you believe them."

ullmandds wrote:My love for this hobby transcends my desire to leave it totally...but my buying has been dramatically curtailed because of it.

Then clearly you would have a lot to gain from having these types of issues come to the forefront.

ullmandds wrote:I've accepted that the world is corrupt and full of cheaters in most aspects of daily life.  If our government...and all governments are corrupt...and full of greedy cheaters...why should I expect baseball card auction houses to not be?

Yes, there's dishonest people in all walks of life, Pete.  But let me tell you one thing - if there was no one there to ask questions, no one to speak out, and no one to keep those people in check, they would take over everything.  So really I think we all have a responsibility to ask questions and speak out when something is wrong.

Yes Jamie...I am outraged by what goes on in this hobby...and the world for that matter. And over the last 10-20 yrs of my life I have had the attitude that I'd rather know what is going on in the world...than not...and I have become a news junkie...trying to absorb as much news and information as I can about the world and what is going on in it.

Whereas many people I meet...when prompted about a current world event or some other matter at the forefront of the news...react by saying that they stopped paying attention to the news because it is so depressing.

But...all of this information and news has caused me to become somewhat negative...and it has become a burden...and has negatively affected my life.

So I have somewhat changed my attitude. I still want to know what is going on in the world because I believe that knowledge is power.

I just don't take the news so much to heart anymore...especially if it is out of my control.

Same with the hobby...if there is nothing I can do...I have decided to keep quiet. Most people in the hobby do not care...I'm tired of being one of a few to be constantly bitching and moaning about it all...hardly anyone seems to care.

I will continue to ask questions wen I see fit...and question corruption if I feel it can make a difference...but for the most part I'm done!

When I look at my collection...most of it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies the way it may used to have. I have seen just about every card that exists...the thrill is gone...I have moved on to other interests and endeavors.

Pete,

We're really not that far off as you think. I honestly feel the same way. Often, I can't even look at my cards anymore. The difference for you and me is that because of what I've written in the hobby, there's a reminder of baseball cards wherever I go. There's no easy exit for me. Other people can just silently bow out.

Yeah, there might be some people out there who think I'm crazy when I say there's an element of organized crime in the hobby. But when you think about it, in a hobby awash with dirty money and ex-convicts, as well as the FBI creeping through warehouses and staging prosecutions, it is really not that hard to believe after all.

I'll get in an elevator with a guy, and he'll know of me and he'll be biting his fingernails and not able to breathe because he's so nervous. Or I'll get in a cab and the cabbie will be so nervous that he's biting his fingernails. Or I'll ask for directions to the supermarket and the person I asked will be so nervous that they can't even speak.

That's what my iife is like these days, on a regular basis. But there's also people who like what I've done in the hobby. Not everyone is a bad guy. I won't find a lot of support on the message boards, but of course I understand that because for them to post would be practically suicidal.

Yes, I'm a marked man. There's people in my life who understand what is going on, and they all give me the same advice - stop posting and go away. But I can't, and I guess it's because I love this hobby, too. The hobby doesn't belong to anyone, it belongs to everyone, and I guess that means I'll keep speaking my mind.

Jamie,although Im relatively new to this forum Ive been collecting my whole life for pure enjoyment not to get rich or have a retirement fund. Im the guy who buys off grade cards because I cant afford certain ones in good condition. Ive read alot of your posts and have a pretty good idea that you have a collection that some museums would envy.I just want to state that I understand what you and wonkaticket were getting at. I see both sides of the argument. Unfortunately corruption is everywhere, Never mind the high end cards,Ive been burned with 15 dollars cards and no matter the cost you feel embarassed and foolish after you find youve been had . It is too bad that some people feel they can only buy from someone they know because of fear of being ripped off.No amount of software will ever get rid of the thieves in the hobby, on or off line. Im sorry about all the crap you say your expeirencing but I will say the most childish,immature thing to have done is publicly try to humiliate wonkaticket by posting a pic of a card you know he wanted to buy from you.He was ending the conversation with you and thats the only way you could have the last word?I thought you were better than that. Im not attacking you, just giving my opinion,I enjoy a good friendly debate every now and then but know when to stop.

Scott, thanks for understanding there are two views here. I'm not saying Jamie is wrong it's noble to want a safe clean environment for all to collect. It's just not realistic at this time. When I say few auctions use this software I'm talking all auctions houses for all things as I collect way more than just baseball stuff.

The sad reality is no matter the hobby the one thing they have in common is corruption. Sad but true.

Addressing this feature with this software I can also see why a designer may add the feature to see max bids for honest reasons. An example might be you have a client bid well beyond his means with a really high ceiling bid that you know or think he can't cover. Better to have that conversation in advance than before the auction ending. However I think we all know sadly sometimes good information will be used poorly and for the one or two times this feature would do good it will be used for not so savory reasons 99% of the time.

That's why I say assume all the boxes are checked against you and try to do business with folks you like.

The only sure fire way to make sure an auction house can't take advantage of you in some shape or form is to not do business with them. I'm with Pete I'm not ready to walk away just yet, and I can't worry and think myself to death on this stuff.

As for Jamie and this silly OJ thing I don't get it. Jamie contacted me about buying the card I passed nicely. Then he starts snarky emails saying I can't handle his cards and other odd stuff and seems to think that I'm out here looking to hang myself because I don't have this card of his that I passed on.

I can only assume its due to how Jamie is. Jamie tends to think in extremes. I think Jamie does need to seek some help. I also think threads where he is allowed to act out and live these outlandish thoughts of strangers on the streets knowing him and marked man stuff isn't healthy or good for him.

I have no hard feelings against the guy if anything I'd like to see him get better and back in action collecting.

That's my two cents.

For the record Jamie I support your thoughts of a clean hobby 100% and applaud you for speaking up. I just don't know what can really be done that hasn't already been discussed.

Cheers,

John

Okay, let me get a few things straight.  First of all, in response to Scottand, consider the post before it.  If John lashes out in that way, calling me delusional or whatever, saying I need mental help, as he did earlier in the thread, then of course I am going to respond in an unfavorable manner.  So if you think that you see both sides of things, then here's an idea: try really seeing both sides of things.

As for the dog card negotiations with John, yeah, I contacted him about the dog card and made him an offer.  I had promised him a long time ago that if I were ever to sell it, he would have first crack.  I kept that promise.  John had told me years ago that he was the underbidder on the card and that the only reason he hadn't come back to bid early in the morning was that he had fallen asleep.

So of course, I knew that he was willing to pay more for the card than I bought it since he already told me he was willing to bid higher.  John, I believe, has a collection that ranges in the multi-million dollar range - if not, than at least hundreds of thousands.  I also knew that he was willing to pay astronomical prices for some cards.  John termed my collection as amazing.  I offered him to pay for majority of the value of my collection, at cost, although I purchased the cards years ago when the economy was down.  For the record, my entire collection was bought for <50k.  Then why is it so amazing?  I have taste, that's why.

I know that John has a bevy of money and could afford the cards.  I simply won't believe otherwise based on the prices he has paid, no matter how much he cries poverty on this board.  For the record, I never said that the card was "too rich for his blood", as he attests.  I told him they were too sweet for him to handle, that's different.  Yeah, it took a few emails for me to get to that point.  First I wrote him one saying I wanted to wait a month after he rejected my first offer.  But I didn't like that he was trying to niggle me down below cost.  I also didn't like that he said he wanted to consult his friends.

I had thought it was over, and was perfectly happy with keeping the cards.  But the following week, John sent me two emails with his grievances about the previous week, including a rant where he told me he didn't like the "snarky tone in which I said I would end negotiations."  Then in this thread, John once again mentions the dog card.  I had already told him that I didn't care about his grievances and suggested that he stopped emailing me.  This thread was about a completely different topic than the dog card, so why he introduced in the first place is beyond me.  I hadn't even been thinking about the dog card.

Point being that this is the third time that John has brought up the dog card after negotiations ended three weeks earlier.  Then, he is calling me mentally ill or whatever, which I already mentioned earlier seems to be some chorus line for anyone who starts questioning things in the hobby.  As far as the Mob being in the hobby, all I can say is, you're just wrong.  Organized crime has pervaded everything, from the financial world to fixing soccer matches in Indonesia.  So get over it already.  So is waste management, tourism, etc.  There's organized crime everywhere, man, so whatever la-la land you're living in, please try to snap out of it.

Obviously, John has a considerable amount of wealth and a large, unhealthy fetish for baseball cards.  He hasn't left me alone about the dog card, so instead of trying to figure out who is or isn't mentally ill, look at the facts.  I presented a lot of questions that John had no real answer for.  Now we're all supposed to think who cares, in spite of systemic fraud and its specter hanging over us.  Listen, Scottand, obviously I have found your posts rather dogmatic, including your rant on my Africa thread where you wrapped yourself in the American flag.

Che Guevara said, "I am not a liberator.  Liberators does not exist.  The people liberate themselves."  So go free your mind, man, and stop giving one-sided opinions that don't reflect the entirety of the situation.

how is it relevant how much john has...or how much his collection is worth...that's his business.

how is it relevant how much money john has...or how much his collection is worth...that's his business.

Scottand said that he is guessing I have a collection museums would envy... that suggests he thinks it is a high value collection. It isn't. So I wanted to correct a possible misperception.

As for John's collection, since he had misquoted me as saying that the card was "too rich for his blood", that obviously gives off a certain scent that I am wealthier than he is. In fact, it is far the opposite.

So I am correcting some possible misperceptions out there that have been created by these two posters.

Hi Jamie, I wrap myself in the American Flag because this country allows us to do what we are doing here,which is voice our opinions. It also allows us to criticize our leaders. If you or anyone else doesnt like it here then yes you are allowed to cry about it but for the life of me why would you stay in a place you dont like? The worlds a big place. Sounds like to me youre not happy unless your complaining or causing chaos (real or imagined) As far as being dogmatic,Yes Im very opinionated but very open minded. Get to know me and you would see that. Dont throw stones,every topic you claim to be an expert in and any one who disagrees is wrong or "against you "Just look what you started with me. All I did was disagree with the way you handled yourself .And calling my one post a rant is comical..read your multiple pretentious rants about your vacation. Also when someone gives you their opinion it usually is one sided,because its one persons opinion and it reflects their view of the situation. My mind is free my friend,has been for quite sometime,Try it sometime

Wow, what can be said about that post. The only unhealthy obsession I see here is your obsession with my personal finances and how and where I use them. Which is the only reason I even responded over here and got dragged into this mess of a thread.

You brought me into this by bringing up my point of view across the street. You did it in a tone based on my collecting habits. Lets be clear the very reason you have any insight into my collection value or my habits is because I choose to share with the collecting community. Something a lot of folks don't do. Not because you have some pulse on the hobby.

I'm very happy with my collection Jamie that's the difference between you and I. While I look to continue to collect and share you look to be negative and nasty. The reasons folks may look at you as odd are not because you are a brave beacon of light being chased by the mob in some Hollywood style adventure or espionage novel. It's because you come off as a confused and bitter person. That's why I said Jamie you don't need to contact me and announce your not going to sell me cards I've already passed on. It's because of these flights of fancy of yours that I asked you not to contact me in the future.

I won't get in the mud with you. I've spent far too much time trying to talk to you in a normal direct manner.  I wish you the best in your life Jamie. I'm moving on I can only suggest you look to do the same.

John

scottand wrote:Hi Jamie, I wrap myself in the American Flag because this country allows us to do what we are doing here,which is voice our opinions. It also allows us to criticize our leaders. If you or anyone else doesnt like it here then yes you are allowed to cry about it but for the life of me why would you stay in a place you dont like? The worlds a big place. Sounds like to me youre not happy unless your complaining or causing chaos (real or imagined) As far as being dogmatic,Yes Im very opinionated but very open minded. Get to know me and you would see that. Dont throw stones,every topic you claim to be an expert in and any one who disagrees is wrong or "against you "Just look what you started with me. All I did was disagree with the way you handled yourself .And calling my one post a rant is comical..read your multiple pretentious rants about your vacation. Also when someone gives you their opinion it usually is one sided,because its one persons opinion and it reflects their view of the situation. My mind is free my friend,has been for quite sometime,Try it sometime

Scott, it is you who is intolerant, not I.  For the record, I made no rants about my vacation.  I honestly don't know what you're talking about.  You came onto my Africa thread and had your rant where you said that anyone who doesn't like the country can leave.  That doesn't sound very tolerant to me, does it?

wonkaticket wrote:Wow, what can be said about that post. The only unhealthy obsession I see here is your obsession with my personal finances and how and where I use them. Which is the only reason I even responded over here and got dragged into this mess of a thread.

I am far from obsessed with your personal finances, in fact I hadn't mentioned it since an hour ago, and really that was only to clear up a misconception which you created, John.

wonkaticket wrote:You brought me into this by bringing up my point of view across the street. You did it in a tone based on my collecting habits. Lets be clear the very reason you have any insight into my collection value or my habits is because I choose to share with the collecting community. Something a lot of folks don't do. Not because you have some pulse on the hobby.

I just feel that your opinion is hypocritical considering how active you are in the hobby.

wonkaticket wrote:I'm very happy with my collection Jamie that's the difference between you and I. While I look to continue to collect and share you look to be negative and nasty. The reasons folks may look at you as odd are not because you are a brave beacon of light being chased by the mob in some Hollywood style adventure or espionage novel.

I think I have some very good reasons to be critical.  The hobby leaves a lot to be criticized.  You have made it abundantly clear to everyone that you don't care.  I think that's sad.

wonkaticket wrote:It's because you come off as a confused and bitter person. That's why I said Jamie you don't need to contact me and announce your not going to sell me cards I've already passed on. It's because of these flights of fancy of yours that I asked you not to contact me in the future.

You didn't fully pass on the cards.  You wrote that you wanted to discuss it with your friends.  I didn't like that you wanted to drag other people into our negotiations. I had every right to email you and tell you it was over.  It was you who started bothering me the following week.

wonkaticket wrote:I won't get in the mud with you. I've spent far too much time trying to talk to you in a normal direct manner.  I wish you the best in your life Jamie. I'm moving on I can only suggest you look to do the same.

Hey, I just had some questions about some stuff you posted that I found hypocritical.  It had nothing to do with our negotiations.  It was you who came on slinging mud about the dog card, saying I needed mental help, etc.

And just for the record, as far as whether I'm confused or whatever, try finding the contradictions in what I write.

Jamie,If youre going to quote me like you quoted my entire last post. Make sure you do your homework. On the Africa thread I never said anyone who doesnt like this country can leave. I said "Its a big world and the choices are endless" If I wasnt happy in a job,house,or relationship I would and have done something to change it, Im not one to cry about something without action but thats just my opinion.Im done with this crap. I said it before.I joined this forum to talk about the hobby not to be drawn into Fantasy Island. Maybe make that your next trip.

scottand wrote:if anyone doesnt like living here this is a big world and the choices are endless.

I think that pretty much means the same thing.  And it was inflammatory, because it has absolutely nothing to do with my trip to Africa.  In fact, the thread didn't get back on track until quite a bit later.  I didn't appreciate that.

The one thing you made abundantly clear, unlike everyone else who posted on that thread, was that you had absolutely no interest whatsoever in my trip to Africa.  So thanks a lot for posting. 

scottand wrote:I joined this forum to talk about the hobby not to be drawn into Fantasy Island. Maybe make that your next trip.

Your next trip will likely be to the Island of Guam, since it's an American territory. 

OH,so thats it.I think I get it now. Because I didnt show an interest in your trip Im an A**hole ? I only jumped in because of the comment"Its hard to refute their argument" regarding we are a bunch of imbeciles. Thats all Sorry if I offended you. That wasnt my intention.If it makes you feel better even though I didnt comment, I read the posts and enjoyed the pics.

I seem to remember someone saying that if they didn't like this country they should leave. I don't know who said it and don't care, but I do remember it because I responded to it. Even hinting at, as you did Scott, is very low rent. You can dislike lots about this country and still love it. It's not a love it or find someone endless option choice.

scottand wrote:OH,so thats it.I think I get it now. Because I didnt show an interest in your trip Im an A**hole ? I only jumped in because of the comment"Its hard to refute their argument" regarding we are a bunch of imbeciles. Thats all Sorry if I offended you. That wasnt my intention.If it makes you feel better even though I didnt comment, I read the posts and enjoyed the pics.

Okay, well thank you for apologizing and I'm glad you liked the pics.

Jay, this all started when I commented to Jamie about how he handled himself with wonkaticket. Go back and read what went down.It escalated from there. We all have opinions.I apologized to Jamie (It was real).But I wont apologize for my opinions and I dont expect one from anyone. The whole "I love this country" thing has blown way up. I am the biggest critic of government,but like I said earlier..How great is it that we can come on here and say what we want about anything and not be put to death for it.

scottand wrote:How great is it that we can come on here and say what we want about anything and not be put to death for it.

My experience tells me that I wouldn't be so certain about that.  Take it for what it's worth.