Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

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Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by seablaster on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:15 pm

I believe someone mentioned in a previous thread that this set was to be auctioned off individually this coming year.

I reviewed the Legendary catalog provided for the private sale and all I can say is "Wow." What a tremendous set of cards. Not counting financial considerations, if I had a choice between this grouping of cards versus a T206 Wagner and both blue and red Baltimore News Ruths, I would choose this set. The player selection, portraits, and early HOFer representation make it highly desireable in my opinion. The fact that most of the known cards are in lesser grades is appealing to me as well. The cards can be more appreciated for what they are and not because they are condition rarities.

Does anyone know what the asking price was for the entire collection? Does Mr. Sullivan have a legitimate chance of recouping his original investment with the set sold individually?

Have the Type I and Type II origins been sorted out? I thought Scott Brockelman disproved the advertisement cutout theory by producing a Type II with a stamped back.

I'm interested in seeing what the Young, Wagner, and Chance sell for. I had never seen the Chance prior to receiving the catalog. The Chesbro also has a very nice image. There are 4 cards in the near set that I would like to add to my collection, but I feel I will most likely only be a player on 1.
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by jbonie on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:10 pm

Aha! This explains your somnambulance in the last Legendary auction regarding those OJ's. snooze

The E107 auction will be a fascinating one. Most of the cards are highest graded, so it is high grade for the set. I would think there will be very aggressive prices, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to swoop in and grab something. With all those cards going at once, there should be great opportunities.

Goooooooooooood luck!
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by seablaster on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:03 pm

jbonie wrote:Aha! This explains your somnambulance in the last Legendary auction regarding those OJ's. snooze

You know, if I had feelings, they would be hurt. Right when I was getting over it too. Nice jab though chief. flaglol

The set appears to be high grade for the issue, but does this preclude the possibility of multiple sets owned by old school whales who aren't fond of grading? Or is the set so rare that there can't be 5 more out there?

I definitely agree, with that many auctioned at once, hopefully a few will "slip through the cracks" so to speak.
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by jbonie on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:38 pm

We do have an E107 expert on the board who could answer better, but as far as I know, it isn't the case that a lot of ungraded E107's are out there. The cards are truly rare.

A few may "slip through the cracks", but you also run the risk of wasting your time completely as there may be a whale or two out there who will pay absolutely anything for any card since they are pretty much all highest graded. So be careful not to go overboard on your bids.

Good luck!
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by terjung on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:56 am

I'm far from an expert on the E107 set, but I do follow them and have collected a number of them over the years.

To answer your question about the number of sets existing in whales' collections and ungraded... the number of complete sets known to date is exactly zero - despite a number of whales agressively pursing it. One collector is within one card of finishing the set, the next closest is in the single digits and the next closest is around 13 or so. (I'm going from memory, so don't quote me.)

Chance is exceptionally rare and is probably the most rare HOFer in the set. A few others are nearly as rare though - Hanlon, Wallace, and Kelley come to mind. Most of the cards have only single digit populations, but a few of the Philadelphia players area have probably 20 known.

You may find information is a bit scarce to come by since those collecting the set don't necessarily want to "tip their hand".

For the Type 2 question, I am of the opinion that they are from an advertising piece of some sort. Only 9 players have ever been found in a "Type 2" and all of them are hand cut. There is yet another "type" that is still classified as a Type 2 - also handcut, but on yet different stock. So, technically, it could probably be classified as a "Type 3" if anyone cared enough. Scott Brockelman does have a Type 2 Delahanty with an overprint. That complicates the Type 2 discussion slightly, but does not rule out that Type 2s are from an advertising display, IMO.

The origin of the Breisch-Williams purple, back stamp is unknown - except that it was obviously put there by the B-W company. I suspect that at least a couple different companies issued E107s with their caramels, but the set is attributed to B-W solely due to the overprint. B-W may have advertised a redemption of some sort (during which they cancelled the cards by stamping them). If that were the case, some kid may have cut a card from an advertising piece and slipped it in with other cards as part of the redemption. This is all just conjecture and theory at this point. More research would need to be done to support that hypothesis, but that's what I think happened.

E107s are by far my favorite set. Incredible b&w photographs with 23 HOFers represented in the set - including the rookie card issue for several of them.
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by jbonie on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:21 am

Very interesting read. Thank you, Brian.
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by seablaster on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:15 pm

Allow me to express my gratitude as well Brian. Thank you for commenting on the nuances of this issue.

I certainly hope that the gentleman who is one card short of a complete set finds the one he needs in this auction.

I guess the thing that surprises me is the values assigned to the type II cards. Wouldn't purists not consider these to be true cards if they weren't distributed with the original product?

I would make a comparison to the Cracker Jack cards cut from the advertising piece. I'm sure the cut outs are pretty tough to find, but they don't sell for anywhere near the regular cards do from what I've seen. I know the Cracker Jacks may be a slightly different situation because of the information present on the reverse, but the values are markedly different. question

I'm going to put an over-under on the Chance at $25K. It's clearly just a guess though.
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by terjung on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:10 am

There is a difference between the Cracker Jack advertisement "cards" and the E107 Type 2s. First, as you stated, the backs of the CJs are different and clearly show they were cut from a bigger piece. Second, the actual advertisement containing the card images has been found. Neither of these hold true for the E107 Type 2s. The Type 2s are blank backed and no evidence of such an advertising piece has turned up. If such a piece did turn up, I'd expect it to bring a VERY handsome price and the Type 2 values to plummet.

Personally, I've never owned a Type 2 and have no intentions of ever doing so. I do see their appeal though as it is certainly a cheaper way to pick up an E107 Delahanty, for example.

I don't know if the "one card" missing from that set is represented in the Sullivan collection, but I'd suspect that it is. I have heard that the cards will not enable "the second closest" complete his set, but that is all hearsay. Once again, it is not widely advertised who needs what - for obvious reasons.
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by fisherboy7 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:26 am

Ok, prediction time. Any guesses on how some of the tougher cards will do?

I'll start us off....Chance: $25k.

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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by sabrjay on Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:59 pm

I'm thinking that might be on the low end. This is a big time registry card for HOF collectors and the few people that are working on the set most likely need it too.

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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by fisherboy7 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:05 pm

You might be right Jay. Certainly intriguing to speculate. I'm waiting impatiently for these cards to hit the block!

Another one to consider is the Delahanty. Not sure what kind of condition the Sullivan example is in, but the last time one sold was in the Huggins and Scott auction - SGC 10 for a whopping 65k!! That one looked a little undergraded, but still...what a price. That's the only type 1 that I recall selling in the past decade (there has been at least one type 2 change hands over that period, and it sold for far less).

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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by terjung on Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:06 pm

I expect the Delahanty to go for less this time, but wouldn't hold my breath on getting Chance, Wallace, or Hanlon cheaply.

As for predicting actual sale prices, I'm going to play this one a little closer to the vest. Cool
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by fisherboy7 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:04 pm

Fair enough Brian. I don't think our little forum gets as much exposure as others, so I feel pretty open about discussing projected prices, especially since I likely don't have a realistic shot at the one's I'd want. Hope you don't mind, and certainly understand why you'd want to refrain from such talk.

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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by terjung on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:57 am

Have at it! I don't mind others talking about them (in fact, I supremely enjoy it). I also don't mind healthy discussion about projected prices... I'm just going to hold back on making public predictions myself. Nothing personal. I won't be doing it across the street either.
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by seablaster on Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:15 pm

Brian, I look forward to your post-auction comments on realized prices.

As I mentioned in my post above, I concur with the over/under on Frank Chance at $25K.

With my limited experience with this set, my guesstimates are:

Wagner SGC 50: $85K
Mathewson SGC 50: $65K
Young SGC 60: $60K
Delahanty SGC 10: $38K
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by fisherboy7 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:47 pm

Good estimates, I'm right with you on the Young and Delahanty, but I'm going "over" on Wagner and Matty. I think Wagner could push 6 figures, and Matty I'm going 75k. These sales will certainly set the bar on E107 pricing for the foreseeable future.

Another question: I recall hearing that the collection is a handful of cards short of a complete set. Anyone know which ones are "missing"?

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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by sabrjay on Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:20 pm

If the Wagner doesn't hit 6 figures I'd be surprised. I'm thinking Matty may push that territory too. Guys doing the rookie HOF registry will be in the hunt for these cards.

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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by seablaster on Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:13 pm

I would hope the Wagner would reach those levels. There are definitely less interesting/historic cards that have attained that value. The Matty is less appealing to me personally because, like the T206 portrait, I don't think the likeness is that accurate.

Per the LA private sale catalog, the missing cards are:

Type I: Doyle, Elberfeld, Lajoie, Lee, Lush, Powell, Thoney

Type II: Delahanty, Doyle, Seybold
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by Bicem on Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:46 pm

Both the Wagner and Matty should easily surpass 100k. I'll be surprised if Wagner goes for less than 150k and Matty 125k.

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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by terjung on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:11 pm

Personally, I'd be surprised to see any E107 Wagner sell for less than $100k... let alone the nicest of the four that have been graded.
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by ullmandds on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:23 am

I tend to agree with Jeff on this...I cut and pasted this comment from another thread as it seems more relevant here!

I think many cards will go for strong prices as collectors upgrade and snatch up rarities...but there will also be bunches snapped up by dealers which will be placed on ebay at inflated prices...as well as upgraders dumping their lesser graded doubles on the market.

So for the short term there will be many more on the market than in the recent past...but over time they will get snatched up and will slowly disappear.


"I think e107 prices will come down for the short term, much like when Freund sold his e107 collection through REA a few years ago. Will be a great buying opportunity, especially those just looking to add one or two as a type. I'm sure some cards will go really high, but overall I expect prices to be soft."
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by seablaster on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:33 am

It is clear from the consensus opinion that I grossly underestimated Wagner's star power and retail value.

My apologies to any and all whales that were planning their bidding strategies based on my preauction estimates. righton
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by ullmandds on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:40 am

Hey...I'm totally speculating here...I could be totally wrong?! Just reminds me a little...just a little of all of the t208 cullivan firesides that hit the market a few years ago...the first grouping brought very strong prices...then more hit the market...and prices dropped 30-50%...and since then they have been a common occurrence on ebay!

I know...can't really compare the 2 sets...but...just my feel.

And Seablaster...I think the stars...wags...young...chance, etc...as well as key rookies and toughies people need for their sets will sell very...very strong!!!
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by jbonie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:19 am

ullmandds wrote:Hey...I'm totally speculating here...I could be totally wrong?! Just reminds me a little...just a little of all of the t208 cullivan firesides that hit the market a few years ago...the first grouping brought very strong prices...then more hit the market...and prices dropped 30-50%...and since then they have been a common occurrence on ebay!

My guess is that there will be at least one bidder who goes aggressively for the whole set and makes it so that that doesn't happen. All it takes is one person to bring in a lot of capital. I know that wasn't the case with the T208's, but as you said, E107's are a totally different beast.

As long as there is one person like that, prices could be pretty strong. I'd be surprised to all of a sudden see massive discounts on E107's just because of the rarity and beauty of the cards being auctioned, but maybe I will be mistaken.

As has been said before, if the cards wind up going 20-30% cheaper, it would be a great buying opportunity for anybody who ever wanted one. I will not be participating, but if I had the cash, maybe it would be a different story.
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Re: Regarding the E107 Breisch Williams Chris Sullivan set...

Post by sabrjay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:28 pm

I know at least 2 people that are doing the set, so whatever cards they need I am sure they will be going after very aggressively. You won't see across the board discounts, but the more "common" players won't be commanding too much attention from big money collectors.

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