Looks like he got the ball rolling...

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Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by seablaster on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:13 pm

Peter, I wouldn't go so far as to suggest cause and effect, but 3 Felix Mendelsohns in the upcoming Goodwin?!?

There looks to be some nice cards in there. Very Happy
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by ullmandds on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:53 am

Yes...it seems F & M's are one of the issues du jour these days...I'm sure...like most trends...it won't last!!!!!

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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:07 pm

When are people going to start to get excited about Old Judges??? frustrated

What I've seen is a lot of people throwing money into subpar sets and obscure variations. The nice stuff has remained flat.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by sabrjay on Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:14 pm

If OJs are flat, then now is time to buy when no one is paying attention.

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RE:

Post by seablaster on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:59 pm

I've got to agree with Jay. If a subset I was pursuing lost some attention from the collecting community and the prices softened, I'd be all for it.

I think the Old Judge market is prohibitive for the average collector. The overall cost combined with the scarcity of certain subjects make it daunting. Advanced Old Judge collectors can be like silent assassins. They have their hand over your mouth and a knife in between your ribs before you know they're even there. I've put in what I thought were very aggressive bids for some and later had my bid nearly doubled by the winning bidder. Dedication and deep pockets make a potent combination.

Jamie, as an aside, what sets were you referring to as subpar?






Last edited by seablaster on Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by Bicem on Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:14 am

ullmandds wrote:Yes...it seems F & M's are one of the issues du jour these days...I'm sure...like most trends...it won't last!!!!!


m101-6 trend is here to stay. great looking + rare + star loaded = amazing cards
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:03 am

seablaster wrote:
Jamie, as an aside, what sets were you referring to as subpar?

There are a number of early 20th century sets that I find subpar. I will keep in mind that a number of collectors on this board actually collect these sets, and I'm not trying to light a fire under anyone's ass, the other thing I can assure you is that my opinion carries just about zero weight in the collecting community and undoubtedly won't have the slightest effect on the value of anyone's cards. And I'm probably wrong on top of it and the cards' value will double from here on (while my OJ's continue to tank).

What I have seen is that people these days are going for absolute rarity without any real regard for aesthetics. We have seen some truly hideous cards explode in value. One major type of card I would place in this category is early 20th century cabinets. The aesthetics of these cards are horrendous, imo, especially the T3's and M110's look like they were drawn by an eleven year-old. Then you have certain cabinets that look grainy. In this category I would put W600's and Mendelssohn's. Some of them are grainy and some aren't.

Another category I find horrendously overrated are cards that share a front with many other types but only vary due to the back. Worst example is the Tango Eggs Cobb, but there are many others. The E90-1 Jackson is hideous. Or take a T206 Brown Lenox that sells for 30k that would otherwise sell for a hundred bucks, just because they ran out of black ink and used dark brown. These are extremes, but there are myriads of examples and you don't have to look very far.

One major reason for the explosion of values for these obscure cards is the advent of a horrible trend called type-collecting. This is where none of the cards match and the entire collection looks ridiculous. If you have a favorite player, I can understand type-collecting, but there are guys out there who just want to grab one of each card regardless of player.

Not only does their entire collection then look ridiculous, but it steals the cards from the set collectors and starts bidding wars. Folks like type collectors, or master t206 collectors going after every card, just make it impossible for everybody else. The master T206 set is the most baffling. How can you even look at all those thousands of cards? Puzzling.

Half of what I just wrote above is probably wrong, and I apologize again to anyone who is choosing to collect those sets. You can just look at the prices to see that the market doesn't listen to my opinion anyways. But it is my viewpoint and just one honest viewpoint.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by cccc on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:57 am

hey i think the m110s with their crude litho and dark dramatic backgrounds are charming, i think they're actually cheaper now than 5-6 years back because more examples have surfaced. there was a time when i thought premiums like w600s and t3s were the best bang for the bucks because they were cheaper and you get so much cards. obviously that's not the case anymore. i still think cabinets are pretty cool, except rose postcards and t5s where the backings can be switched.

haven't big cards like n142s, t3s, m110s decreased in value from 07-08? i think only the w600s have really taken off (and n173s?). t5s have disappeared, you hardly see any t4s for sale anymore and forget about the jk&a. i don't really know the mendelsohn, i always thought they look more like postcards than the what traditionally have been classified as cabinets.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:06 am

The M110's are okay but they are way out of proportion. That is my #1 complaint with them. It is a dealbreaker for me. I haven't followed the price action on a lot of those sets, it is just how I feel about them in their entirely. I also think a lot of post-war stuff is still overvalued.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by cccc on Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:23 am

postwar is driven by the registry and pop numbers, so of course it's overvalued. playground for the rich Smile. with some connections and backdoor grading your psa8 common go from a $20 card to a 2k psa 10.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by ullmandds on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:17 am

I started type collecting in the late eighties...there is nothing new about it...and it kept me interested in this hobby for decades! The reason it appealed to me was because I wanted to be able to recognize and identify as many different issues as I could...distinguish real vs fake(which wasn't much of an issue 20-30 yrs ago)...to educate myself!

If one only collects OJ's...you're really depriving oneself of so many other great and interesting cards.

And to compare the image quality of photographic images to hand drawn/painted ones is like comparing steak to tofu!

But to call T3's ugly...and crude may be blasphemous to some!!!!!!

It's like looking at a beautiful woman who has no depth...no substance...yes...she is esthetically beautiful...but once you get past that...what is there? Nothing but a pretty face?! I'll take a pleasing woman with an interesting history...life experiences...an opinion, perspective...over solely a looker any day of the week.

Another disjointed message from an amateur...former type card collector who now collects grainy oversized images of men in tights...albeit loose ones!
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:41 am

ullmandds wrote:
If one only collects OJ's...you're really depriving oneself of so many other great and interesting cards.

It's like looking at a beautiful woman who has no depth...no substance...yes...she is esthetically beautiful...but once you get past that...what is there? Nothing but a pretty face?! I'll take a pleasing woman with an interesting history...life experiences...an opinion, perspective...over solely a looker any day of the week.

Ugh, I just can't like 20th century cards anymore. It is hard to go back... it is like sipping fine wine and then returning to the three buck chuck from Trader Joe's... you just don't want it anymore.

I also find the 19th Century history far more interesting since it was the deadball era. Everything you learn about the players is new and fascinating. There are tons of amazing stories, and many of the cards have stories, take the OJ cards that were jokes, or the history of the players. Two player cards, cards with mascots, spotted ties, it is by far the most charismatic set!

Pete, I like your Babe Ruth Mendelssohn, it is a cool card. But I am always suspicious of cards that soar in value like that. I hope for your sake that it continues, many people seem to think it will. But for me it is hard to trust something that has already tripled in price over the last year????
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by Bicem on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:19 pm

jbonie wrote:

I also find the 19th Century history far more interesting since it was the deadball era.

most consider the deadball era to be 1901-1919.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by Bicem on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:21 pm

ullmandds wrote:

But to call T3's ugly...and crude may be blasphemous to some!!!!!!

agreed... think this is the first time in the hobby I have ever heard someone call T3's ugly (and no I don't collect them, but can still appreciate their beauty).

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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by ullmandds on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:23 pm

"Pete, I like your Babe Ruth Mendelssohn, it is a cool card. But I am always suspicious of cards that soar in value like that. I hope for your sake that it continues, many people seem to think it will. But for me it is hard to trust something that has already tripled in price over the last year????"

++++++1
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:48 pm

Bicem wrote:
jbonie wrote:

I also find the 19th Century history far more interesting since it was the deadball era.

most consider the deadball era to be 1901-1919.

Really? See, I'm learning already! That's why 19th Century is so much more interesting!!! heehee
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by Bicem on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:51 pm

You can really argue against ANY set when calling out your own personal opinions as flaws. For example, one could argue that OJs are subpar since they are not rare as a whole (there's like 600+ of them on ebay right now), plus many have really cheesy and forced action poses and/or faint images.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:54 pm

Bicem wrote:
ullmandds wrote:

But to call T3's ugly...and crude may be blasphemous to some!!!!!!

agreed... think this is the first time in the hobby I have ever heard someone call T3's ugly (and no I don't collect them, but can still appreciate their beauty).


Take a look at the T3 Cobb, for instance. His head is like, the same size as one of his testicles.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by Bicem on Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:14 pm

jbonie wrote:

Take a look at the T3 Cobb, for instance. His head is like, the same size as one of his testicles.

uh... I'll take your word for it.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:40 pm

Bicem wrote:You can really argue against ANY set when calling out your own personal opinions as flaws. For example, one could argue that OJs are subpar since they are not rare as a whole (there's like 600+ of them on ebay right now), plus many have really cheesy and forced action poses and/or faint images.

Of course you can argue against ANY set. These are my opinions and I presented them as such. As for the OJ's, lots may be on ebay, but they are all BIN's, not auctions, so they don't count. And they are still far more rare that most popular 1909-11 issues.

As for the OJ poses, I don't think they are cheesy, they were limited by the technology of the day, and I find them cool. Cheese is not that. Cheese is E cards. Most 19th cent. cards are very interesting and have great photography. Not cheesy at all.

As far as the faint images go, it's about the technology of the time. It's rare to find great OJ images so that does make them rare, the ones that have them sure are terrific. Check this out:



If you think that card is cheesy, I'd be curious to find out what you think isn't cheese.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:44 pm

CHEESE:




Hope that helps.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by Bicem on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:23 pm

I actually like Old Judges, but some people do think the overly dramatic fake sliding poses are a little cheesy though.

The Ewing with mascot is definitely not cheesy, maybe just a touch gimmicky, but definitely not cheesy. Nice card.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:33 pm

Neither am I a fan of the sliding poses.

I don't think the E&M is gimmicky. It certainly wasn't a gimmick; the mascot was part of the team, you know. He even had his own card.

In fact, I find the mascot historically pertinent. As you may know, baseball become popularized during the Civil War. The idea of a mascot was derived from the drummer boys who lead the regiments in the Civil War.

Here is an 1862 painting by William Morris Hunt:



I'd hardly call it a gimmick. It is an important historical piece that features prominently in the new $500mn wing of the MFA Boston.

Here is a sequel to that piece called "Wounded Drummer Boy":



Kind of gives you an idea of what William Morris Hunt may have thought of war in that era.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by cccc on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:09 pm

beautiful painting of the drummer boy, wish i have the cheese for something like that.
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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

Post by jbonie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:37 pm

Here's another great one from the MFA, "The Torn Hat" by Thomas Sully, 1820. It was the first time (at least in that era) of a boy was presented in a painting as an actual boy, leading a child's life. Before then, they were simply dressed up for paintings as little adults.

I love both the torn hat and the drummer boy. Stop by Boston sometime and you can see 'em.

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Re: Looks like he got the ball rolling...

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