It's Done!!!

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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by jbonie on Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:20 am

cccc wrote:ha...what a pic.

between wagner and ripken the shortstop was mainly reserved for smaller, weaker guys whose main job was to plug up the defense. then the 80's came with trammell, yount, larkin, and ripken. the 90's brought in the offense-first mentality of the pos with arod/nomar/jeter. today the most athletic guy on the team is probably the ss.

of course when you take out arod/yount/banks jeter have even more impressive stats at the ss position. when arod came over he was superior offensively and defensively over jeter, but had to give way to mr. new york. i def agree jeter is an all-time top 3 or 5 shortstop......but he clearly falls short of ruth gehrig et al.

Well said, Quan, I repped your post. As for A-Rod, what he was doing fooling around with Madonna I'll never know or understand (or want to know).
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by sabrjay on Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:20 pm

If A-Rod doesn't go to NY, he easily becomes the greatest SS ever. I'd also put Banks, Smith and Ripken ahead of Jeter. Defensively, Ripken had little range but he was very smart and knew how to position himself for each player so he didn't need to run a long way to get to a ball. If you want to talk peak values, Jeter probably barely makes the top 10 lagging behind Larkin, Nomar, Yount and others.

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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by jbonie on Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:44 pm

ARod is not a team player. In spite of his massive numbers, both of his old teams did far better after he left. In fact, the Mariners put up the greatest record in the history of baseball.

I'd take Jeter over Ripken. Ripken was a class act but also an anally retentive guy who was disliked in the locker room. The Iron Man streak badly affected his performance towards the end of the season, when he was needed most. He was dismal in September/October.

Ozzie Smith over Jeter, that is a joke man very funny. Behind Larkin, too? Larkin was a class act with comparable stats but I'll take Jeter, who came up big on so many occasions. Not even Barry Larkin would take Barry Larkin over Derek Jeter.

Nothing is more overrated than Sabrmetrics. I am sorry, nerds who cannot ever understand a baseball game. Sabrmetrics have their place but people have become tools instead of using it as a tool.
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by sabrjay on Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:38 pm

Nothing is more overrated than Sabrmetrics. I am sorry, nerds who cannot ever understand a baseball game. Sabrmetrics have their place but people have become tools instead of using it as a tool.


Ummm, aren't you the one pointing out all the sabrmetric articles?

You seem to have missed an important point in my last post, I said PEAK VALUE. Ripken, Larkin and Ozzie were all better at their peak than Jeter. He was a team player, great for him. As a Yankee fan about Puckett and talk about what a team player he was and Yankee fans laugh. You can't have it both ways.

No one is saying Jeter isn't one of the best SS ever, he just isn't in the top 5 career or peak. Yankee fans just can't stand it when the rest of the country doesn't look upon their players as some sort of demi-gods.

Another MN example, Hrbek v Mattingly. According to Yankee fans he was the second coming and the greatest defensive 1B in the game. Only problem was that Kieth Hernandez and Kent Hrbek were far better defensively. Yankee fans wouldn't here it. Donnie Baseball is a Yankee, therefor he is better. Too many Yankee fans argue that way and big reason most people dislike the Yankees and their fans.

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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by jbonie on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:05 pm

You are getting waaaay too far diverted for this to be constructive anymore. Anyways, speaking of peak performance, Jeter's .349/.438/.552/.989 in 1999 is better than anything any of those guys did. But it's the entire body of work that counts the most.

Barry Larkin would trade his career for Jeter's in a heartbeat. And I can't believe you mentioned Ozzie Smith again.

As for Kirby, I love him! Can't remember muttering a discouraging word about him. I would take Donnie Baseball over Hrbek because of the defense, the ability to hit for average, and Hrbek played in a very favorable park for HR hitters. Donnie is not a HOFer, though. That we all know.

Anyways, upon failing in your arguments about Jeter you have gotten completely sidetracked. I think I am finished here. Good day.
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by sabrjay on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:13 pm

You do realize that SS actually play defense. No one, I mean no one, comes close to Ozzie when it comes to defense. Offensive numbers are not the only thing to rate player. Sadly, that's all most baseball fans and sports writers use to rate a player.

As to peak performance, that refers to a 5 year span. Not just one season. Norm Cash would be considered a great peak player if that were the case, but no one mentions him in those conversations. He gets brought when talking about major deviations from the norm.

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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by jbonie on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:17 pm

No, sir, I didn't realize that shortstops play defense. yawn

As to your other shenanigans regarding "peak value", I just say, "whatever".

Later, Dude
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by sabrjay on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:18 pm

Typical Yankee fan

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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by jbonie on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:24 pm

No problem, Jay. Here's a little love from the Yankees celebrating their 2009 World Series Championship. Don't forget to join the party!



Maybe one day the Twins will figure out how to win a playoff game and that will be Joe Mauer standing up there holding the trophy. I wish you luck, man.
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by cccc on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:32 pm

kent hrbek...wow talk about blast from the past.

both of your biases are showing. how about we go frank viola vs ron guidry next Wink
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by jbonie on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:39 pm

Considering two players have equal offensive production, I would rather have the guy who hits for more average than power. It provides for a more consistent offense and wears down the pitchers better. Too many home runs come when the score is 8-1 against a mop-up guy.

Btw I would take Kirby over Bernie in spite of Bernie's slightly better OBP due to Kirby's better defensive abilities.
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by sabrjay on Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:56 pm

You really do need an education on baseball history. The Twins won the WS in '87 and '91. How's this for stupid homer stats. From 1979-97 the Twins won more WS titles than the Yankees. So for almost 20 years that means the Twins were a better franchise than the Yankees because it's all about the titles Wink

You act like I think Jeter is dirt. There is no arguing that he isn't one of the better players of his era to step on the field but to claim he is a top 5 Yankee or even a top 5 SS is a bit over the top. That's my point and the point others have made.

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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by ullmandds on Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:17 pm

"There is no arguing that he isn't one of the better players of his era to step on the field but to claim he is a top 5 Yankee or even a top 5 SS is a bit over the top. That's my point and the point others have made.

As a die hard, lifelong Yankees fan...I agree with this statement, Jay! And boy did 1982-1994 suck!!!!!
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by jbonie on Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:18 am

Wow, I didn't know the Twins won the WS back then because I'm only twelve years old. Don't you see my portrait in my avatar?
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by jbonie on Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:39 am

One thing I will say, it's the same thing, I am getting used to it, I saw this with my old judge thread to - gang up on Jamie and try to take him out. Nevermind if the facts do not support you.

Hey my thread was to celebrate an impressive accomplishment in MLB. The lack of class belongs to you, to you who chose to come on here and drop a massive turd on the thread. At least Quan was man enough to admit his inadequacies.

Same pattern, beat up on 'ole Jamie. Nevermind if expert articles support his opinion. Nevermind if the facts/data are so incontrovertible that you can't win the argument, even when it's me vs. the entire board. Jamie is too smart and unpopular and must be taken out.

Oh and there's always the great trick of putting words in my mouth. Apparently, I worship pop reports. And I had no idea that the Twins ever won the WS. Thanks for teaching me these things about myself.

Imagine all the things I could learn if I just stuck around longer. But on a board where I'm constantly surrounded a board leader and his nest of wasps, is it really possible to not get stung?
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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by sabrjay on Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:05 am

No one is ganging up on you. Just because other people don't think the same way you do doesn't mean they are ganging up. Just means they don't agree with your point of view. Nothing wrong with that. The world would be a boring place if we all thought alike.

I've read enough articles on this topic to know that there is no incontrovertible evidence to support your claim. There are plenty of supporters on both sides. You also can't go and use sabrmetric articles to back up your claim, then turn around and claim sabrmetrics is garbage when someone else uses them to make the counter point.

As for putting words into your mouth, you are the one that said

Maybe one day the Twins will figure out how to win a playoff game...
This lead me to believe you had no idea that the Twins had ever won a WS title.

Just like you want to believe that Jeter is a top 5 Yankee, those that think Koufax is the greatest pitcher ever will get an earful from me and others who think otherwise. It's nothing personal. So don't take it that way. These topics are fun as long as you don't let it get to you. Just realize that if you come across as ignorant on something, like the Twins needing to show they can win a playoff game, then you going to get taken to mat on it.

This board is very very tame compared to others. I've been on the internet since 1986 when all you had was USENET and ftp protocols. Those that were around for USENET know what a real flame is like. This is like throwing cotton balls at each other in comparison.

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Re: It's Done!!!

Post by jbonie on Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:14 am

Whatever.

Please check the technical support forum as I'd like to leave the board. I've had enough. It's taking to much time from my life and the conversation is too asinine.

There are some very nice people on this board such as Quan, Ben, Wonka, Brandon, et al. It is nothing personal but I want to focus on other things.

My email is n172delahanty@gmail.com if anyone needs to contact me for anything.

Good luck
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