T206 Cobb Green Portrait

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T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by chefmikeg on Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:07 am

Do any of you happen to know what makes the Cobb green portrait more rare that the other Cobb cards in the set? At first I thought that maybe there were not as many were produced, but when you look for this card there are plenty to choose from. It's probably a silly question but I thought I would throw it out there.

Mike
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by sabrjay on Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:47 am

The t206 gurus can probably answer the question better than me, but this was the standard belief in the 80s but I never really noticed that it was any tougher than the red portrait. The bat off shoulder seemed to be what I saw most often.

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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by jbonie on Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:16 am

There are plenty of green portraits, but still fewer than the other Cobbs, I believe. Something like 50% of the quantity. Guys with access to the population reports could probably help you more with this. You'll always see high prices on green cobbs for that reason. My opinion? Sweet card.
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by terjung on Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:34 am

I am far from an expert on T206s, but I believe the main difference has to do with what backs each of them were printed with. The Red Cobb was printed as a "superprint" in that it was printed with most of the different backs, thereby dramatically increasing the population of the "front". The green Cobb portrait was not a superprint and is only found with certain backs.

It is perceived that the "superprinted" cards were printed additionally with more frequency in order to take advantage of their popularity at the time. In addition to the Cobb red portrait, there are 5 other "superprint" cards. Namely, they are:

Chance yellow portrait
Chase blue portrait
Chase throwing dark cap
Evers bat "Chicago" yellow
Mathewson dark cap

Others here are far more knowledgeable about this set, but I think what I've written here is accurate.
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by bowlingshoeguy on Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:44 am

I think Brian covered it pretty well. I believe alot of it is a comparison to the Red Portrait, which there is no shortage as Brian explained.

Lee
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by zapsr on Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:30 pm

Hi Guys,

The Green background Cobb is in fact more difficult to obtain than the other three. There are fewer that exist. Keep in mind though that the rarest of all is the Red with the Ty Cobb back. Best, Tom

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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by ullmandds on Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:00 am

While i agree the green background cobb is the toughest of the t206 cobb's...due to some of the aforementioned reasons...I don't believe the cobb/cobb card should even be mentioned in the same breath when comparing T206 poses...as I do not believe it to be T206...Welcome Tom!
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by sabrjay on Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:09 am

I've held a Cobb/Cobb in my hands and it's not a t206. It just feels different.

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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by jbonie on Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:48 am

Regardless, the cobb/cobb is a red portrait. The initial question was about the rarity of the green portrait in relation to the other cobb poses.
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by sabrjay on Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:20 pm

e92s use the same pics as t215s. That doesn't make them t215s so you can't use them in a rarity comparison of t215s.

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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by fisherboy7 on Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:47 pm

sabrjay wrote:e92s use the same pics as t215s. That doesn't make them t215s so you can't use them in a rarity comparison of t215s.

T215's have identical pics as T206's.

Did you mean E92's and T216's?

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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by zapsr on Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:36 pm

Agree that many people do not consider the Cobb/Cobb part of the collection because it was inserted into the tins, and also agree that the green Cobb is tougher to get a hold of.

I personally include the Cobb/Cobb in my discussion because of who manufactured it, and when, but yes the argument can be made against it.

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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by ullmandds on Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:39 pm

Point being...there are red background cobb portraits in other sets besides T206...coupon for example...so comparing non T206 Cobb red portraits to other cobb t206 poses is senseless...as was the initial question...scarcity of green background cobb to the other t206 poses.
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by wonkaticket on Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:30 pm

I’d be curious as to what evidence Tom do you have that the Cobb/Cobb cards were inserted into tins or distributed with the product at all?

To date we have no idea that I know of on how Cobb/Cobb cards were distributed or if in fact they were distributed at all to the general public. Many of these cards came from a single source which only deepens the mystery and raises more questions.

Green cobbs are tougher but not by any means super tough. Finding nicely centered and clean in focus ones tends to be a tougher haul but the same can be said for others. The red is by far the easiest and most printed card of Cobb and is easy to see as most any auction will have many at once etc.

Cheers,

John
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by zapsr on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:43 pm

Based on the research that we did when we wrote the book, we are surmising that the Cobb/Cobb was in fact distributed as a premium in a very limited geographic area as a sales tool to promote the product.
We do believe that it was inserted into the Ty Cobb Granulated Uncut Plug tins. Do we have absolute proof? No. However, the staining on some of the cards has us leaning in that direction.

I personally have always considered it part of the collection so as to not make it an "orphan" card. In actuality, I personally believe that the card was distributed around 1912. Could be wrong on that one though.ATC had quite a few premium marketing specials with various products over the years. Sorry for adding to the confusion.

I must tell you guys. I really enjoy this site. It is a pleasure reading tid bits from passionate collectors. How about some Cracker Jack talk??? I want to pick your brains. We have just signed a deal with Frito-Lay. The Cracker Jack Collection: The Players & Their Stories will be out in the Spring of 2014. Thanks and Best, Tom

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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by ullmandds on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:53 pm

Thanks Tom...Ohhhhh...Cracker JAcks...how I love your crispy, sometimes chewy caramel coated popcorn...and the way you all stick together in clusters...oh but maybe the best part...oh cracker jack...is the few nuts I may be so lucky enough to find at the very bottom of the box intermixed with popcorn sawdust...oh cracker jack how I love thee!

I love a lot of the artwork on the 1914-15 CJ sets...but I only have a few for my type collection...not many(any) real mysteries with these sets...are there?
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by sabrjay on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:47 pm

If I remember correctly, a number of years back, someone had done and exhaustive comparison of the Cobb/Cobb with the tin and everything seemed to indicate that they were separate product and not issued together. They make nice companion pieces but I think most advanced/knowledgeable collectors don't think the card came in the tin.

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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by wonkaticket on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:53 pm

Stains not so sure...only one I have ever seen has had any noticeable stains...and I wouldn’t say they were typical of tobacco stains vs. any other type of aging or storage stain after years of sitting somewhere.



Cobb was a granulated or cut plug tobacco basically a loose leaf tobacco not unlike Polar Bear, if you put 12-15 Polar Bears in a sample almost more than half have some sort of stains from the product even with their deep blue backs and many still have remnants of the product adhered to them. In many cases it even has caused paper loss form scraping the tobacco off years later with the fingernail.

Now with Cobb brands white or cream colored back one would think these card would be ripe with stains if distributed with the product, yet that is simply not the case most Cobb cards show very little in the way of soiling or major stains. Also none that I have seen show any remnants of product or paper loss.

If I was to draw a conclusion based upon the physical cards conditions as to if they were placed in the tins with the product. I would be the exact opposite Tom FWIW.

Just my take…

John
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by mzm55 on Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:11 pm

I do not believe that the Ty Cobb-backed cards were inserted into the “Granulated Cut Plug” tins. It is possible that the same company may have issued a cigarettes and granulated tobacco. The Ty Cobb –backed card mentions Cobb as the “King of the Smoking Tobacco World,” not the king of tobacco in general, thereby demonstrating that the card was issued with some sort of smoking tobacco rather than a granulated tobacco for chewing. It seems that one can conclude that the Ty Cobb-backed baseball card was issued with a cigarette product.

Further, I am not sure about the 1912 date. Although I can not prove otherwise, Ty Cobb smoking tobacco was produced starting in 1910, as early as March 1910, specifically, according to primary source. Newspaper accounts from 1910 state: “It’s a ‘pipe’ for Ty Cobb to gain fame. A smoking tobacco has been named in honor of the great Tiger”—implying that Ty Cobb smoking tobacco just recently “hit the market” in March of 1910. It seems odd that Ty Cobb smoking tobacco was being produced in 1910 and they waited two years to insert a baseball card within their product, although it is not impossible. This understood, we can come to the possible conclusion that the Ty Cobb-backed card was issued with cigarettes, not granulated tobacco, and likely in 1910.

Also, it should be noted that although the Ty Cobb card and Ty Cobb tobacco has long been associated as a regionally-issued product, issued in Georgia, this may be erroneous as accounts as far west as Arizona make mention of Ty Cobb tobacco. The mention of a product outside of where it was distributed does not mean that the product was produced in that specific area, but it allows us to consider that Ty Cobb tobacco was distributed in other areas other than Georgia.

Regards,

Zach

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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by wonkaticket on Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:51 pm

Zach,

There is only one add I and others are aware of in which they (producers) were advertising the brand for sale to end users. The other places where the brand pops up outside of the regional area in print were simply wire press inputs.

What I mean by that is it was nothing more than an article for journalism sakes mentioning that Cobb was getting into the tobacco biz etc.
Sort of like if Johnny Depp started making wine for sale in France where one of his homes is to his. You may see other papers and magazines around the world say “Johnny Depp is selling wine?” WTF, FYI or LOL.

Now Depp may do this as a legitimate business opportunity he sees in the market place.

He may do this to capitalize on his name in a commodity based business and charge a premium for something folks have established at a price within a market.
Or it may be simply a licensing play where he’s not the least bit involved short of approval and royalty checks from an agency.
I think any of these scenarios applies to the Cobb brand and cards.

I personally think these cards were salesman samples handed out as premiums to bring attention to the brand somebody was trying to launch and were not distributed with any products to end users.

More given to tobacco shops as calling cards or remember to try me next time you order smokes or chew and give us a try.

The fact that so many of the examples were found in one place leads me to this theory, also some have gloss and some don’t. Leading me to think whoever was printing these for dist. as handouts somewhere down the line changed the paper.

It could have simply been a situation where the local printer ran out and the person who needed them said “use what you got etc. I just need another 100 or so I’m making my sales rounds this coming week.”

But it’s just a theory and is open to debate.

John
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by Abravefan11 on Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:56 am

zapsr wrote:...I personally believe that the card was distributed around 1912.

Hi Tom - Would you mind sharing with me what leads you to believe the Cobb/Cobb cards were distributed in 1912?

chefmikeg wrote:Do any of you happen to know what makes the Cobb green portrait more rare that the other Cobb cards in the set?

There are many factors that make one T206 subject more difficult to come by than another. You need to understand which group a subject was printed in, how many different backs were printed with that group, how many of those backs the particular subject was printed with and factor the relative scarcity of each back. But to simplify this topic here is a breakdown of how many backs each subject in the respective Cobb's group is possible with and how many each Cobb is confirmed with to date.

Green 12 Possible ~ 7 Confirmed
Bat On 12 Possible ~ 8 Confirmed
Bat Off 23 Possible ~ 16 Confirmed
Red 26 Possible ~ 23 Confirmed

Two other factors I believe that add to the Cobb green portraits difficulty is it's extreme popularity and perceived scarcity.
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Re: T206 Cobb Green Portrait

Post by sabrjay on Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:37 pm

Granulated tobacco isn't used just as chew/dip. It could also be inhaled through the nose or rolled and smoked. So the back of the card doesn't exclude the the tins we know of, but it makes it highly unlikely that those cards came in those tins because staining would be a major issue.

Salesman samples are the best explanation since that is usually how you find a large quantity of a single item.

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