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The Brooklyn Atlantics; 1860's dynasty and early cards

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Post by fisherboy7 Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:42 pm

From the Library of Congress website:
The Brooklyn Atlantics dominated early baseball by winning championships in 1861, 1864, and 1865. The Atlantics usually crushed their competition, scoring two or three times more runs than their opponents. The game was an amateur sport: according to the rules of the National Association of Base Ball Players, athletes could not accept wages to play ball, although gifts and jobs were sometimes offered as a means of compensation.

Baseball cards as we know them did not become commonplace until the 1880s. This early prototype is actually an original photograph mounted on a card. At the start of the 1865 season, the Atlantics presented opposing teams with framed photographs of the "Champion Nine." The Scottish-born photographer Charles H. Williamson opened a daguerreotype studio in Brooklyn in 1851, continuing to work as a photographer until his death in 1874.
According to some, the Atlantics team was featured on some of the very first baseball "cards". Admittedly my knowledge on this interesting subject is fairly limited, so it would be great to hear from some of you on this. I've gathered that there are three known images featuring the Brooklyn Atlantics:

* First, the 1860/61 CDV which is unique. Never seen a scan of that one (anyone seen one?).

* Second was the 1865 piece, mentioned in the above quote, which was exceptionally large and obviously quite rare since only one was presented to each member of the team (it's pictured below).

* Third was the 1868 Peck & Snyder CDV (also pictured below).

There is some debate as to whether the Atlantics P&S CDV is the first ever true baseball "card". Many consider the 1869 Peck & Snyder Red Stockings CDV to be the first baseball "card", because it was the original professional team (the players were waged) while the Atlantics club was an amateur team. My mind is not made up on this issue but it would be great to hear some opinions from some of our members. One thing I know for sure is that these cards are pretty amazing, and I'd like to learn more about them. On to the scans...

1865 piece:

The Brooklyn Atlantics; 1860's dynasty and early cards Atlant10

1868 P&S CDV:
The Brooklyn Atlantics; 1860's dynasty and early cards Image714
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Post by ItsOnlyGil Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:47 pm

It was in April of 1865 that Lee surrendered at Appomattox.
Ummm, were these guys playing baseball prior to this date?
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Post by scott elkins Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:27 pm

Gil, I guess people had to have something to take their minds off of the terrible war which pitted brother against brother. I know Lincoln liked the theater to help ease his mind from the war (when he had time to atttend that is).

Thanks for posting these Ben. The 1968 P&S Atlantics card is the one I referred to in another post about being a true card issued before the Reds P&S of 1869. My thinking is that no matter what you consider the earlier pieces (Ben mentioned and pictured), the 1868 P&S HAS to be considered a Baseball Card IF one considers the 1869 Reds P&S a card (which I think BOTH are Baseball Cards).

Of course, with these early types, there is always going to be much debate as to whether an issue is a true Baseball Card. My opinion on this is that if it pictures a Baseball Player or Team and was issued to the public, it IS a card (whether it is a Pro Team or not).

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Post by fisherboy7 Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:34 pm

ItsOnlyGil wrote:It was in April of 1865 that Lee surrendered at Appomattox.
Ummm, were these guys playing baseball prior to this date?

Gil, records of the Atlantics go all the way back even to 1857. Here's an interesting article from the Brooklyn Eagle, Sep 23, 1862, describing their match vs. the NY Mutuals (apologies if it's hard to read):



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Post by ItsOnlyGil Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:37 pm

Ben:
Forgetting for a moment that all the men in America simultaneously decided to go camping for a few years beginning in 1861, and if they ran into someone they didn't know, or didn't like they shot him.

Some do not think that the game is baseball if a batter can demand a high or low pitch, if foul balls caught on a bound are out, and if other early rules and conventions which substantially change the play from that of post 1893 times are used. Primarily because of the differences in the rules, I think, 19th century baseball is ignored by many, as not applicable.

Apparently you and I disagree with those "many". However, as a practical collector of baseball cards, I recognize that if I was to seek and obtain some of these early examples, each would skew the value of my collection substantially. Therefore, I spend most of my attention on that portion of baseball history which is assessable by cards which are valued similarly to the others in my assembly.

I certainly agree that these early cards represent the best example of the roots of our hobby. But I still was under the impression that everyone went hunting, fishing, trapping and other killing – with cannon or gatling gun, if you had ‘em – throughout this period.
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Post by fisherboy7 Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:08 am

Interesting point, Gil. Given that the Atlantics were active during the Civil War years, it raises a number of questions; who were these players anyway? What afforded them the luxury of playing organized ball when such a large percentage of American men were enlisted and in combat? Were they wealthy gentlemen who's privileged socio-economic position excused them from military involvement? That comes across as an unlikely scenario, but I would be interested in learning more about it.

On a side note, the Atlantics didn't play nearly as many games as professional teams did in the decades that followed. So perhaps their involvement with the team didn't interfere with their other 'responsibilities' from 1861-1865.

Here's their record from their active years:


The Brooklyn Atlantics; 1860's dynasty and early cards Record10
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Post by ItsOnlyGil Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:34 am

Well Ben,
From your data, it appears obvious that the Civil War had an impact on their ability to field a team. Specifically in the two years immediately prior to the war, they participated in 12, then 14 games. But during the War's initial year, that total dropped to 7, then 5 in the second year of the War. Then there followed 11 and 20 games in the suceeding seasons. I wonder why.

I have asked Barry Sloate for his insight here. He has helped me out on other early baseball issues and brings a considerable awareness of this subject to any conversation. I hope that you do not object to me seeking his knowledge.
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Post by ItsOnlyGil Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:50 am

Ben,
It occurs to me that I have hijacked the subject a bit with my focus on the War. Your inquiry about the early cards included:

There is some debate as to whether the Atlantics P&S CDV is the first ever true baseball "card". Many consider the 1869 Peck & Snyder Red Stockings CDV to be the first baseball "card", because it was the original professional team (the players were waged) while the Atlantics club was an amateur team. My mind is not made up on this issue but it would be great to hear some opinions from some of our members.

To which Scott replied:

Of course, with these early types, there is always going to be much debate as to whether an issue is a true Baseball Card. My opinion on this is that if it pictures a Baseball Player or Team and was issued to the public, it IS a card (whether it is a Pro Team or not).

I find myself in the same corner as Scott. Specifically, in order for an object to be a baseball card:
1) it has to portray baseball in some form, and
2) it has to be a card

Distribution, advertisement, product, etc. do not apply as identification validity criteria.

imo.
Gil


My definition has proven to be faulty by Hal Lewis who sent me a scan of Hank Aaron's driver license and told me that it met my criteria (which it did) and therefore was a baseball card - which it is not. But exceptions do not negate rules, they are solely exceptions.
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Post by fisherboy7 Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:54 am

ItsOnlyGil wrote:I have asked Barry Sloate for his insight here. He has helped me out on other early baseball issues and brings a considerable awareness of this subject to any conversation. I hope that you do not object to me seeking his knowledge.

Would be great to hear from Barry on the subject. I recall him mentioning that he had handled the 1868 P&S Atlantics CDV at one time, so his first hand experience is certainly welcome.

ItsOnlyGil wrote:It occurs to me that I have hijacked the subject a bit with my focus on the War.

Both subjects are interesting and relevant to the topic. Besides, it's natural for a conversation to broaden and develop from the original focus, so no worries about a hijack here, Gil. Discussing the political situation that surrounded the team in those years could provide some interesting background and insight towards the role baseball played for many people at that time; both as a growing pastime and as a diversion from that costly war.
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Post by ItsOnlyGil Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:38 pm

Hi Gil- interesting question, but it varied with each club. The Excelsiors didn't play for a year, roughly between 1861 and 1862. Others simply filled the ranks with men who didn't go to war. Not everyone did. If you were wealthy and paid a fee of a few hundred dollars, you didn't have to serve. But many of the teams clearly lost some of their players during the war. I think you would need to look at the rosters on a team by team basis. Barry
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