M101s with pressure lines

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M101s with pressure lines

Post by nolemmings on Sat May 30, 2009 5:43 am

Jerry brought this up in the F&B thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread, plus I didn't want to digress too far from the many great contributions of Famous and Barr scans. There are a few of the m1014 backs that have light pressure lines, and I'd love to hear if there are others or see examples of what you have. Here is one that shows the lines--I apologize for the large scan size but it's needed to best show the lines:

The horizontal line runs across the card, about 40% of the way down (just below his top button). The vertical line starts at the bottom and runs about 15% from the right side (through about the middle of his glove). After this line intersects the horizontal, it turns more and more imperceptible.
These pressure lines are generally not that obtrusive at all, but the grading companies will kill you on them. I'll post a few 40s or 50s that display much nicer. Actually, this Stock might be one--only these lines and some back discoloration knock it to a VG (like the ghost image?).
I do not know why only a few of the ad backs share this trait, and I have pondered it a long time. I also have seen some blank-back m1014s that have it as well, which would seem to rule out the notion that this occurred at the back printer's shop. Anyway, I'm always interested in knowing what others think or have to share on m101s, and this subject is a particular mystery to me.
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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by TheBig6 on Sat May 30, 2009 6:30 am

Todd, Are these pressure lines on every Ware's, Altoona & Burgess-Nash?
Every one that you have inspected, that is.
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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by hrbaker on Sat May 30, 2009 1:39 pm

Todd,
Three cards on the attached scan share the exact same trait and they are all blank backed. I bought them in 1994 from a Duke's Collectibles auction out of SCD, described as NRMT of course. I have always wondered of they were the result of a trimming or after market process to improve the looks of the card. As you can see the cards present well but SGC hammered them bc of it. I assume with the fact that it also occurs on many of the ad backed cards that it could have occurred later or in the cutting process or back printing process. Do we know if the various ad backs were added to the cards at the same time as the printing or later?
Jeff
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M101s with pressure lines

Post by nolemmings on Sat May 30, 2009 3:19 pm

Jerry, I'll re-check a couple of my Ware's that graded ex just to make sure, but I believe that all of them I have handled share the pressure lines. As you will see, these can be really faint, sometimes visible only when the card is held at an angle, but they are there.

Jeff, you really did get hammered by SGC. mallet One other thing that I noticed is that your cards are all very nicely toned, far more cream colored than most m101-4s. I have a few blank-backed that are toned like this as well, but generally the m101-4s are noticeably whiter. This leads me to believe there's a good chance that all three of yours are from the same print run, which is supported somewhat by the fact that you acquired them all at once from the same source. No, I do not know whether Mendelsohn provided the ad back printing much less whether he would have done this at the same time the fronts were printed. I assumed since he also sold these in blank-backed sheet form, the ads came later. I also note that I have not seen these lines on m101-5 cards, which were printed earlier, and again, that only a few of the advertisers have cards with this "phenomenon".
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M101s with pressure lines

Post by nolemmings on Sat May 30, 2009 3:26 pm

Here are some Tribunes with pressure lines, fainter than those already shown. I don't know if it's just me, but these don't bother me that much, and the cards look much nicer than the grade. Maybe it'll bother me when I become seller rather than buyer Sad


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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by Bosox Blair on Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:45 am

I just bought 3 different raw M101-5 (blank back) from Mark Macrae this weekend at the WSSCA show in Shoreline, WA. After reading this thread, I carefully looked at the backs under good light and there are no pressure lines on these 3 cards.

Regards,
Blair
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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by rhettyeakley on Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:26 pm

Todd, my brother and I sold a complete blanked back set last year (M101-4) that nearly all the cards had the pressure lines you are talking about, the set also included the tough Oscar Stanage (port) that also had the lines on it. The cards looked WAY better than their technical grades and the set sold for more than what one would expect from a VGEX or so set because of this.
-Rhett

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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by cmoking on Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:50 pm

Nice thread! Why are the grading companies treating the pressure lines so badly? My first reaction is that the lines should be treated like fisheyes and other issues done at the time of printing, rather than afterwards. Maybe they shouldn't get the "full" grade, but it doesn't seem right to knock down an otherwise SGC 84 to a SGC 40 just for these print lines.

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M101s with pressure lines

Post by nolemmings on Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:28 am

Hi King--RU going to Cleveland?

I think the grading companies cling to the notion that any card with a wrinkle or crease cannot grade ex or better, end of story. Actually I have no objection to that approach. Where they caught in a dilemna is how to classify these pressure lines--if a wrinkle or crease, even if light ones--then they must top out at vg-ex or less. As I mentioned to Jerry earlier, I have a couple of Ware's that grade ex that i will need to examine for print lines--these two:


I think I can see the pressure lines ever so slightly in these two; if they are there, then I would guess that the graders (at least SGC) either missed it or misapplied their own standards. If the cards lack these lines, which would be news, then I can see them grading out as ex.
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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by cmoking on Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:17 am

Todd, I'm flying in on Thursday morning and leaving that night. Hope to see you roaming the tables there if you are going on Thursday.

I think I misunderstood the pressure lines. Reading your last post, it sounds like the pressure lines are a physical indentation. I thought it was more like a printer's mark. Given they are physical, then I can see the TPG's point of view.

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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by joejack on Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:42 am

My eyes are going bad because i can't see any pressure lines but love seeing all these cool cards. Shocked


Last edited by joejack on Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by bowlingshoeguy on Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:23 pm

I'm with Joejack, not sure where the pressure lines are but love reading the thread and seeing the cards.

scratch

Lee
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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by cccc on Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:23 pm

fascinating stuff mr. taslegal...i remember a m101-5 jax i used to own might've had that line, but damnit i can't find the scans now. it was either a psa4 ware's back or an sgc50 blank back. it could've been a printer line (most likely) or an indent.

love the b/w Ms!
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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by rhettyeakley on Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:49 pm



Here is the Stanage that we sold last year in REA, you can REALLY see the pressure lines we are talking about on this card. It runs across the card through his neck.

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Re: M101s with pressure lines

Post by bowlingshoeguy on Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:41 pm

Are these lines similar to what I call fold lines on the T202s? You can see that "fold line" on the front and back.



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Lee,

Post by nolemmings on Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:13 pm

I don't think they are similar, but can't say for sure. The pressure lines on the m101-4s do not go through to the back. Also,
correct me if I'm wrong, but t202s were intended to have fold lines, albeit on the end panels. M101s were never intended to be folded. Finally, it almost looks like the t202 line is straight down the middle of the card, at least the one you posted. It might suggest that it was intended to help fold the card directly in half. Maybe the machinery designed to fold the end panels got out of sync, or maybe for some reason some of the cards were supposed to be folded in half. The card you show looks rather natural folded in half--the players shown in the center panel are centered almost perfectly--as if four separate panels were the desired look. The m101 pressure lines have no reason to be on the card at all from what I can discern, much less located where they are.

Rhett, spectacular Stanage. The vertical pressure line on that one is much lighter than the horizontal line, which is common.
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